Read the article...there is civil marriage and it has nothing to do with the sacrament of marriage. And guess what it happens everyday. And guess what...some of those people are Catholic. So are they sinning? Of course. But can they live in sin...and through the grace of God later enter the Holy Sacrament of Marriage? Praetorian please answer me that. I leave this debate and you guys bring me back. Again it's not as black and white as you state. May Gods Will be Done
If a person is about to Fall into Hell and you tell him things are fine you are not doing him any favors. If he or she falls into hell because of your false counsel be sure you will not be long behind them. But be sure of this; your place in the Eternal Flames will be a hundred times hotter and more terrible than theirs for the giving of such false counsel.
It's ok because it happens every day and Catholics are doing it? Our Lady told Sr. Lucy that the final battle with Satan would be over Marriage. Here we see an example of it playing out before our eyes. Catholics claiming that grace comes with sin. How much lower can our standards go?
I have read the article. I am not sure what you want me to say. My position is still the same. Cohabiting couples do not and cannot get Sacramental Grace from fornicating. They do not get Actual Grace from fornicating. They do not get Grace of any kind from having sex with someone who is not their spouse. To answer your question, yes the couple may get Actual Graces and maybe later actually get married, but anyone can get Actual Graces. This doesn't come in any way from cohabiting. A murderer can get Actual Grace while in the midst of sticking a knife into someone, that doesn't mean the act of murdering is giving him the Grace. I am not judging these people in any way. I am guilty of many, many sins. However to link the word "Grace" to the serious sins of fornication or adultery is not helpful in any way. This will just confuse those who are not catechized well. Most Catholics don't know the difference between Actual Grace and Sacramental Grace. No good at all comes from cohabiting or adultery. They are soul-damaging by their nature. In fact they will blunt the conscience (as all sin does) and make it harder for the person to respond to Actual Graces when they receive them.
Did I say it was right...absolutely not. It is a downward spiral to hell. But it does happen. Maybe not to you or me. But to our friends and family members. I still have faith they will see the light. And that entails GRACE. And Catholics have never stated grace come with sin. But you might sin or be in continuous sin and still receive the grace of God to convert. There is no Catholic Theologian who could deny that. Friends in Christ, Al
Our Lady of Fatima also told us most go to hell because of sins of the flesh. The graces to save the lost can be earned by those in a state of grace. "Many souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them or make sacrifices for them."
I am the most guilty of this.And I will try to be better. But some members have certainly been caught doing this. Including Joe,BH,Walford on more than one occasion.
So, we are agreed that it is not right. You say that it's a downward spiral to hell. Here's what the Pope said: “It’s a superstition, because marriage frightens the husband. It’s a superstition we have to overcome,” the Pope said. “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” Now, what kind of "grace of a real marriage" comes from this downward spiral to hell? Can this unspecified grace be transferred to other sins such as stealing? For example, I can commit sin by stealing. It might be a mortal sin or a venial sin, depending on my state of mind (desperately needing to feed my family) and the amount stolen. Later on, I have a qualm of conscience (actual grace) that prompts me to return the money and confess the sin. What part of the sin of stealing would attract God's grace?
Jerry I think your assessment is grossly unfair. I truly doubt any malice exists between the sides. I am honestly amazed why yourself, fallen saint and others believe that just because some (myself included) are extremely leery of Pope Francis, because of his words and actions over a 3 year period. I know in my heart that you are equally true in your own hearts in your suspicions of persons who express concerns on the way the Church appears to be moving. There is an unfortunate result that some members left the forum voluntarily, whose contributions were awesome and whose posts I loved to read; they were full of the love of God. I would love if they returned. God Bless.
[QUOTE="Dolours, post: 169397, member: 4707" “It’s a superstition, because marriage frightens the husband. It’s a superstition we have to overcome,” the Pope said. “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.”[/QUOTE] This may be the stupidest thing Pope Francis has ever said. Completely contrary to scripture "no fornicator shall enter the kingdom of heaven" and what the magisterium of the Church has reiterated for 2012 years before the present pope. This statement alone should cause any serious Catholic to pause in their applause of Pope Francis. Pure situation ethics, which has been condemned by the church as well.
Yes, it is weird and simply can't be explained away no matter how noble were the Pope's intentions when he said it. He gives the impression that he believes the entire Church, including the Magisterium, has been riddled with heresy until he came to the rescue. Thinking it over, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's no point drawing attention to how ridiculous it is. I'm not convinced that God meant His mercy to be used as a rubber stamp of approval for whatever pleases us, which probably puts me on one of the Pope's lists of heretics - maybe the pelagian list which seems to be his go-to category. The modernist approach is to accuse us of judging individual souls even though we, too, have loved ones we wish could have their "irregular situations" declared good with God and only minor aberrations because otherwise they are fine, upstanding, caring people who mean no harm. Trouble is that no matter how much we manage to fool ourselves there's no fooling God. We'll find out the destination of our own souls soon enough. I'll be giving this thread a miss from now on.
Mac, we can be in sin and that statement can be true...that is called conversion. Then through the grace of God we could confess our sins and continue our journey. That is what this is all about. The conversion process, one can't even get to the Sacraments without the Grace of God and then the conversion process begins. And in the Popes spirituality it starts with Grace, Mercy and Tenderness. Why is it so hard to understand. Brother al
We, all of us everyday respond to grace. Either we accept it or reject it.This has always been. But God can only heal those who respond to his call. So God does not heal all Br Al.Because those who persist in their mortal sins reject the grace offered.Those who rejoice in them or excuse them will fail. The quote from Pope Francis is misleading.
Never said heals all... more of your personal opinion. I think you guys like to create what's not there. And respond to Gods call might be immediate, one year or 20 years. I pray one day all of us will have your faith and your clean soul. Brother al
God holds out grace, tenderness and mercy to all! True! He knocks on every door! I think we are all trying to wrap our brains around the words used and the words not used, by our Holy Father and the implications and ramifications of his statements and his exhortations; especially when the secular world listens to his words as well and many of them believe there are changes to the truths of salvation and they can do whatever they want to feel good in here and now and God will forgive them because they were only doing what comes naturally! But the nature of sin is that it injures! Sin injures us, sin is a lie, that holds out false promises but it leads us to pain and loss! God loves us and does not want us injured. Sin injures others! And God Loves all our brothers and sisters and does not want them hurt either. And Sin especially injures God! God made us to know, Love and serve Him so if we have caused injury to God, ourselves or others then an understanding of that fact would compel one to be remorseful of this act. Remorse is very important because when we open the door to Gods knocking, He sees whether we are remorseful or not! If we are not remorseful than we are like satan who remained steadfast in his sin of pride and disobedience! And our mantra becomes, I will not serve, just like satan! Imagine that the head of the jail, telling the inmates one day that they did not need to be remorseful nor did they need to amend their lives and the parole board is now obsolete and in fact the door of the jail is opened and they are all free to leave when they want and to do as they want? Life eternal with God, is our aim and we are told the entry is by the narrow gate because this is serious business. Grave enough for God to take our flesh and to suffer and die for us. Remorse and life amendment is necessary and maybe our Holy Father believes most people are remorseful! but looking at society, with the rate of abortion increasing and the sacrament of Marriage being defiled and all number of other perversions it’s hard to believe that most people are remorseful let alone willing to amend their lives. This is where clarity of words is needed!
