“It’s a superstition, because marriage frightens the husband. It’s a superstition we have to overcome,” the Pope said. “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” What husband if they aren't married? How many classes does it take to turn an unmarried, cohabiting, superstitious man into a husband? And how many classes does it take to turn unmarried sex into a source of God's grace? Does the teacher have a magic wand?
Yes husband because they are civilly married. A couple meet in high school and live together in college. They get civilly married and have kids. When the kids graduate high school they decide to marry in the Catholic Church (Sacrament of Marriage). Yes, they lived in sin. But we're they evil with no grace or did they live in sin with grace...leading them up to the Sacrament of Marriage. Things are more complicated then your black and white thinking. May Gods Will be Done
What is the issue here? You said Pope Francis NEVER told people that being shacked up is a source of God's grace. I showed an article that quoted him as saying exactly that. "He said that in Argentina’s northeast countryside, couples have a child and live together. They have a civil wedding when the child goes to school, and when they become grandparents they “get married religiously.” “It’s a superstition, because marriage frightens the husband. It’s a superstition we have to overcome,” the Pope said. “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/most-marriages-today-are-invalid-pope-francis-suggests-51752/ This is not my interpretation or anyone else's - it is what Pope Francis actually said. So who is being too much here? Me or you?
fallen saint: i hope this doesnt do damage but i feel inpelled to say this: Pray for strength to continue posting on MOG. Your contribution has become xtremely valuable now. Why? Because no member of the MOG can make the usual attack to get a member booted off. That u r some one with a rotating www address or that you are JoeC in disguise etc etc. ☺ This is how i know that there is something wrong with MOG That when soneone with another view arrives and that person posts regularly then Ha Its JoeC or ...
Don't expect any response to that other than the usual "Pitchforks", "Pope Haters", etc. The Catholic Church has always taught that it is wrong to do evil so good might come of it. The Catholic Church has also always taught that endorsing evil is the same as committing evil. What you have quoted is an example of endorsing evil (fornication) so that good (marriage) might come of it. The excuse implied is invincible ignorance (superstition) which is actually belied in the same paragraph. What the paragraph says is that the man and woman have a non-marital sexual relationship (fornication) because the man is unwilling (notice he only mentions the man) to make a lifelong, loving commitment to one woman, thus keeping his options open to move on to a better, more desirable woman. Their fornication produces children which doesn't cause them a problem until it's time for the children to go to school. With no alternative woman on the horizon, the man decides he might as well make it legal by entering into an invalid marriage to satisfy whatever reason it is preferable for a child to have legally married parents in Argentina (still fornication according to Catholic teaching). Being Catholic, the man knows that saying the word and getting a legal certificate is not the same as a real marriage, keeping his options open for a real marriage with someone else. Then, in old age, when death is on the horizon, these Catholics take out the spiritual insurance of having a Church wedding, proving that they knew all along that what they were doing was sinful and endangering their immortal souls. Somewhere in there is an excuse for unrepentant fornicators to be admitted to the Eucharist. Pronouncing that God pours His grace on this farce would be scandalous for any Catholic. Coming from the Vicar of Christ, it is nothing short of abominable.
No what if's. The truth is there for anyone who wants to see it. You still can't explain how a fornicating man who has made no commitment can turn into a "husband" because the Pope won't affirm Church teaching that all sex outside a valid marriage is sinful and therefore cannot be a source of God's grace, never mind the Sanctifying grace of the Sacrament of Marriage.
A am sorry but he is a husband...civilly. And Our Holy Father never said it is not a sin. Those are all your opinion of what he is saying. I will get to very heart of the matter. Can a civilly married couple (fallen away from church and living in sin) receive the GRACE from God to (in the future) enter the Sacrament of Marriage? That is the issue. Plain and simple. Even though the couple is in sin...are they gradually being converted by the grace of God. If you state they are sinners and should be banished...then no one may enter heaven. Because we are all sinners. Brother al
Pope Francis Before the Most Blessed Sacrament: "He did not kneel, remove his pileolus, and assume an attitude of prayer (Milan) In the context of his visit to Milan today and the meeting with the clergy of the Archdiocese in the Cathedral of Milan, Pope Franziskus spent some time before the Blessed Sacrament. "He does not kneel, but sits down on a beautiful chair surrounded by other prelates who stand ..." Thus, Antonio Socci criticized the scene, which provoked criticism from different sides. The traditional page Messa in latino added some comments. Its author criticized Francis' attitude before the Blessed Sacrament, as had not yet been voiced by him in the four years of this pontificate. "The Pope did not visit the Blessed Sacrament on the main altar (which would have been a good and proper opportunity to provide visibility to the worthy worship of God, the climax of the liturgy and the cult), but in the crypt, almost as if it were a private act that is made in secret and in a hurry. A prie dieu was not even provided. That is, the master of ceremonies of the cathedral had instructions not to set him one up at all. The pope does not want to use the prie dieu and apparently does not even have one on hand. Francis did not even remove the white pileolus on his head before the Blessed Sacrament. It was once named Soli Deo because it is only removed for God in the Sacrament. Expression and body language, the folded hands, indicate that the pope is not taking a prayerful disposition before the Lord in prayer and worship, but just as if he were in a program and had to make an intermediate stop in the crypt which had annoyed him. The look seems apathetic as if he did not see God in the Most Blessed Sacrament. Francis before the Most Blessed Sacrament: "Apathetic look, no disposition of prayer" Pope Francis does not seem to have the intention of wishing to foster acts of worshiping God, as they are only due to God. He does not kneel down, as is known (he suffers, it is said, but not officially). But he sits instead of not taking the pileolus off and not to fold his hands? No, I believe he does not believe in the real presence! On Holy Thursday we will see it. It is pointless: I am told that I must love and respect this pope. I just do not succeed in loving him. It is hard for me to respect him. He is Pope by right, but he does not sanctify and teach it in his office. Perhaps he is pope only in government (Therewith, to place the Franciscans of the Immaculate under provisional administration and to dismiss bishops, to protect homosexual priests, and to promote worker priests). Christian Caritas is merited when it comes out of love for Christ. Without Christ, it is only atheistic social aid." http://eponymousflower.blogspot.fr/2017/03/pope-francis-before-most-blessed.html?spref=tw My Comment : The Fallen Pope probably, so don't be surprised ! The only member from this Forum, who said that I was not Catholic.
Keep twisting yourself inside out, Joe, in your attempt to explain this away. They're Catholics and they are not married and either of them is free to marry someone else in a Catholic Church. That's time-honoured Church teaching and conflating actual grace with God's gift of Sanctifying Grace flowing through Sacramental Marriage just doesn't cut it. The man is nobody's "husband" even if an Angel from Heaven tells you otherwise and their fornicating union, no matter how legal according to secular authorities, is not marriage in the eyes of the Church but if you believe that God disregards the Church He founded to guide us back to Him, go right ahead. Just don't expect me to accept it as a "development of Doctrine" because this Pope is calling evil good.
Fallen Saint, Dolours is correct here. Marriage is a complicated issue, but there is no such thing as "civil marriage" for Catholics. The Church has different rules for non-Catholics, but for baptised Catholics the only way they can get married is sacramentally by the Church. If a Catholic attempts to get civilly married, then no marriage takes place. Period. This is Church teaching. In fact the person(s) would actually be sinning by trying to get "married" this way. Catholics are even forbidden from attending such a ceremony as guests, that is how serious this issue is. Separate rules for "natural marriage" of non-Catholics also exist but that is not what we are talking about here. Of course God can always give anyone Actual Grace at any time, but this is not the Sacramental Grace of a sacramental marriage.
