There was this science lecturer. One day he got his class to write a good arguement to why God does NOT exist. He was looking for not just a one liner, but a one or two page arguement. After he read and marked eveyones assignment. He said in front of the class, that a certain persons assignment was brilliant. It was the best argument in proving God does NOT exist. Then the lecturer finished by saying. ..... "but you are absolutely wrong." Aren't we lucky. Those who have doubts, will soon see Jesus in His Divine Mercy. He is a Merciful God!
I missed this before I said "I have never doubted the existence of God." I never have doubted, but there is no need to worry. For some reason, some people just have this faith, just like your parents did. Padraig, you have seen things in which I have never seen, only heard about. So I can understand why people can have doubts at some stage of their life.
My SPiritual Director one time said I was blessed in that seeing Our LAdy must have confirmed my Faith. THat other people had to walk just by Faith whereas I KNEW. Its true that seeing MAry was an imense help, especially in praying. But at the end of the day I think we have to walk by Faith. For many, many years God seemed a zillion miles away. I must admit I have never altogether been taking by a lot of the srguments for the existence of God. FOr for one argument one way people seem so easily to come up with an argument in another. Faith is at the end of the day, I think a gift. I was touched recently by a Jewish lawyer for New York on EWTN who spoke about his conversion to Catholicism. SOme of his friends were horrified and asked him to speak to a Rabbi with considerable knowledge of the NEw Testament. THe Rabbi was very kind and they spoke at quite some leanght but at the end the lawyer said he still believed that Jesus was the Son of God. But he was puzzled, the Rabbi had read, studied and memorised the New Testament so exstensviely and Knew so much about Jesus so he asked him straight out if all his reading and study , had he ever considered that Jesus might in fact be the Messiah? The Rabbi looked at him with a puzzled, surprised expression on his face and said, 'You know I never even considered that once!' So there you have it. One got hit by grace the other there was no grace at work. More and more it seems to me that it is through prayer we bring the grace of Fiath to others, through prayer and by example. Everyone, for instance wants to be happy and if they see us so happy they wonder why..and think..... 2 Corinthians 5:7 New International Version (NIV) 7 For we live by faith, not by sight.
If one thing causes me to both struggle with my Faith and reinforces my Faith is people on the forum who ask for prayers. It reinforces my Faith because they have the Faith themselves to reach out for prayer even in the most horrendous circumstances. It also confirms my Faith because again and again I see their prayers being answered, sometimes miraculously. It challenges my Faith because theirs Corsses are sometimes so horrendous (especially touching for me the struggle of families) that anyoone with the least compassion could only feel pain on their behalf. I heard one petition in Clonard the other week that seered my heart. It was from a 14 year old semi paralysed girl whose father was abusing her moother and she, 'Didn't know what to do?' I have been praying so much for this young girl ,for her mother and family. I ask your prayers too. But qat the edn of the day if I didn't struggle to find God in this terrible situation I would never have prayed so much or so often. Faith can be a real wrestling match sometimes.
I actually think that God would have given both those men the same graces Padraig, but one clung on to what he knew, whilst the other let go of everything in seeking the Truth. I think we are all given the same graces in life, but much more prayer needs to be said for some people so that they are able to overcome the obstacles. The Parable of the Sower.. Mark 4: 1-20
Hi Jose and everyone else. Of course I agree with you that Jesus miracles were “science proof”. They were of such magnitude that could not be attributed to natural spontaneous or mentally induced causes. But then, those were exceptional times. The Sun of God Himself was dwelling among people in His salvific mission on earth. But He did leave us tangible proofs four our generation analyze and discuss in the light of modern science. That is of course the case of the shroud of Turin. But, even nowadays there are incredible miracles happening. You just have to look for them. You mentioned the apparitions and also you mentioned levitation in a previous post. Did you know that in Garabandal the girls did levitate in front of lots of testimonies? And this was testified by qualified medical doctors. And sometimes, during the ecstasies they become so heavy that a grown up adult could not lift them (ref: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Garabandal%20Visionary%20Experiences%20Dr.%20James%20Pandarakalam%20AP%20edit.pdf) Concerning Mary of the Divine Mercy it is clear by now to me that we must be very careful (not to say more) about her messages. I was very fond of her in the beginning, but there are so many contradictions by now... Regarding Medjugorje, I do not want to bless the so many good people that believe in these apparitions so I will just say that until (or if) the church does not rule in a different direction I will stick to the conclusions (non constat de supernaturalitate) of the ones that have the proper authority in that matter (two consecutive bishops of Mostar and the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference).
'I think we are all given the same graces in life,'. No, Elizabeth, I know it doesn't sound fair but I don't think we are all giving the same graces in life. Jesus Himself said this: Luke 12:48 New International Version (NIV) 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. So it is for us who were coming came from good Catholic homes, this was a very great grace and not given to everyone ; it may very well be that a very great deal more will be expectted of us than of those who are born to and brought up by, say, raving Atheists. To this degree then God is not a Communist. Giving tto some five talents, to some two and to some,one Matthew 25:15 English Standard Version (ESV) 15 To one he gave five talents,[a] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. . Now this might not seem very fair. Why do some gett the big hand outs and others appear to get nothing but a kick in the teeth? Well Jesus Himself explains this, that to those who recieve much more will be expected. He knows some of us handed a lot will crash and burn and blow it. to others that will get the head down and use it. I think Padre Pio was such a good example of this. From childhood he recieved the very highest graces. He could and did for instance talk to angels and saints and to Jesus and MAry quite directly. WHy then does God not give us all the smae graces as Padre Pio? Because they may count to salvation rather than condemnation/ God handed Padre Pio the ball and he picked it up and ran with it illuminating thte whole worl. We if we were handed graces like Padre Pio might fumble and drop the ball to our own condemnation, in pride for instance. Nor even with we die will we attain to the same reward . THere are nine choirs of angels and each of us will be sent to a different one. No God is not, 'Fair' as people see it, but He is wise with a wisdom that is beyond us. Romans 11:33 New International Version (NIV) Doxology 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[a] knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 'Jesus opened the book of nature before me, and I saw that every flower He has created has a beauty of its own; that the splendor of the rose and the lily's whiteness do not deprive the violet of its scent, nor make less ravishing the daisy's charm. I saw that if every little flower wished to be a rose, nature would lose her Spring adornments, and the fields would be no longer enameled with their varied flowers."' St Therese
Ahhh, we view 'being given' differently, Some are given a great example, others are not, some are blessed with a superior intellingence and a healthy mind and seem to have more in their life because of this. Some have two parents that love them and have brought them up the faith, others haven't.. To me, this is the instance in which we may have been given much, and therefore much will be expected of us.. It also applies to those who have been able to respond and find the love of God in their lives.. But I think that we are all given the word of God, but how we react to it is very different.. I also thinks God allows for this. No matter how far I have drifted, I always came back because of my great love for The Word of God.. This I believe was His gift of grace to me, because of the circumstances surrounding me,, But it was still my choice whether to follow, and see this silence in my heart, or to follow the world. Others I know that didn't have it so great have found that they had a deep and profound love for Our Blessed Mother and felt that she was very close, they have no idea why, when in the face of their life, it would be difficult for an outsider to see this, she too, drifted, then came back.. Another actually saw their guardian angel, and actually have a gift in that whenever someone calls an angel to a home to bless it etc (even when she isn't aware of it) she can sense that there is someone there, but it scares her, she is quite angry at the moment, due to events in her life, but she will come back. I know someone else, who was abused as a child, they have heard of the Love of God, but don't think it is for them, turns out was too much of a challenge as would interrupt how they wanted to live their life. Others I know, don't have these gifts, but have been brought up in homes where the faith was taught, and where there wasn't any abuse etc, so there isn't a need for this gift. I think we are all given graces, but given according to what we need and will do with them. There is no point in calling one to be a visionary, if you know that they will never be able to fully reject their own life in order to bring Christ's message of salvation to others.. Does this make sense? Mark 4:2-20 He taught them many things in parables, and in the course of his teaching he said to them, "Listen! Imagine a sower going out to sow. Now it happened that as he sowed, some of the seed fell on the edge of the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some seed fell on rocky ground where it found little soil and sprung up straight away. because there was no depth of earth; and when the sun came up it was scorched and, not having any roots it withered away. Some seed fell into thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it produced no crop. And some seeds fell into rich soil, and, growing tall and strong, produced crop; and yielded 30, 60, even a hundredfold. And he said.. listen anyone who has ears to hear.. The parable of the sower explained... Mark 4: 14-29 What the sower is sowing is The Word. Those on the edge of the path where the word is sown are people who have no sooner heard it then Satan comes and carries away the word that was sown in them. ( Hard hearted people perhaps?) Similarly, those who receive the seed on patches of rock are people who, when first the heard the word, welcome it at once with joy. But they have no root in them (prayer makes the root, also could be talking about people who have been brought up without any faith lived out in their lives) they do not last, should some trial come, or other persecution on account of the word, they fall away at once. Then there are others who receive the word in thorns. These have heard the word, but the worries of the world (abuse could be a reason, being taught faith in word, not deed, there are many thorns which we can recognize) the lure of riches, and all the other passions come in to choke the word, and so it produces nothing. And there are those who have received the seed in rich soil (hearts tilled through suffering, realizing that their way of life must change, and those who have prayed and lived by faith all their lives, and whom have witnessed and seen in lived in their homes in a true way) ; they hear the word and accept it and yield a rich harvest, thirty and sixty and a hundredfold.. I hear what you are saying Padraig, but that is my view on those who have been given much, much will be expected of them. Of course you and I now fall into this category where once we might not have done. You were living in awful circumstances, even though your mum was a beautiful person, from what you have said about her.. But, you and I now fall in this category of a lot being expected of us, because we have been given a lot, and we have been aware of how much Christ loves us, and how much He suffered for us.. If we turned our back on this now and hankered after our old lives (he who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not worthy of me etc) then we would walk away not caring that on our account Christ had suffered for nothing. That is a HUGE responsibility, however, we stay here because we love Him and are very grateful. I will never understand, how anyone who actually knows of His love walks away, the only thing that I can think of is that they didn't truly know His love and how beautiful he is, or they simply couldn't have walked away.. Yet Satan did, a third of the angels did and Judas did too (although he did relent) the mind boggles..
One of the great SIgns of the onset of the apocalypse is that the , 'Gospel will be preached to All NAtions'. In fact this is accomplished for the Gospel has in fact been preahed to all Nations, even as we speak. However I don't think the sowing of the Gospel seed is equivalent to the giving of grace. Even people who do not accept the Gospel, God's seed, cans still recieve God's grace. God's grace is for all, acceptance of the Gospel is for those who choose to accpet. THere is such a huge mystery in it. I often hear preachers who speak on the Parable of the Talents speaking of netural human Talents. Hoever I have never though that this is what GOd meant himself. In talking of talents I have always believed Jesus meant the graces we are given. In some sense what we do with our human talents can be irrelevant. I am sure many people who have recieved the olympic gold meadl or the highest educational achievments will go straight to hell. On the other hand I have met drug and alchol addicts, who appear to have wasted their human talents down the toilet exhibit sings of high holiness. No I still think in talking of talents, Jesus was talking about grace.
My understanding is that God calls all, but few are chosen. In that everyone receives grace, but not all respond. I don't believe that God would have it any other way, or would be an injustice to send those to Hell who were never given the opportunities that the rest of us were.. I believe graces spill out of a person who prays, on to others, but that these bounce off if they are not desired.
I believe that wholeheartedly too Mezz, there is nothing that we can give to God either, as it all belonged to him in the first place. I hear what you are saying Padraig, and I can see your point of view. But when I think of Padre Pio, I see him as being a faithful friend of Christ's, one of very few actually who don't run when the going gets tough, something we have all done. God needs faithful souls, and when he gets them, He turns them into yet another gift for us. All is grace.
I love hearing different points of view. Mary's Child and Padraig did it so well. I too believe we will be judged on what we have been given. I believe I will be judged harder than someone who didn't know better. As a parent, you don't punish your child for going to your cupboard. But if you tell your child "you are not to go to that cupboard," then he does, you punish him. So many people in this forum have recieved Divine visions. I think how lucky they are. But then I remembered..... 2 years ago after Mass I knelt down with a lady who was diagnosed with cancer. I asked if we can pray to Our Lady together. While we were doing this, I felt such a strong presence of Our Lady. It was that strong, tears ran out of my eyes, I was so over powered by it, I left the Church as quick as I could without it looking obvious. I am so sorry I left at this moment. I don't know why I did. It might have been because of guilt, as I was praying for this sick lady, and all of a sudden it was me recieving, not her. Was it because I had a feeling that I was unfamiliar with? I don't know. But I wonder. What might have happened if I allow Mary to come to me? Maybe nothing else was going to happen. Are all given the same graces? Maybe. Maybe not!
I think as is written, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. , sometimes seeing things have their own price tag. FOr instance in seeing heavenlythings you get to see things from hell too. Padre Pio again is a good example of this.
Hi Bona fide, I have been studying the Shroud of Turin for a while. Or at least what we could do with the material we had. I belongs to a scientific group trying to understand the Shroud. I am one of the authors of this scientific paper: http://www.ligklaedet.dk/images/SUPERFICIALITY published JIST.pdf For my is great to have the chance to participate within this group. I even own a little linen fiber from the Shroud. But the conclusions are far from clear. We cannot explain at the moment the Shroud and I really think the Shroud is genuine and not a fake, but many say: that you cannot explain does not necessarily mean this image was not produced by a natural process. Again, it is the type of miracle where there are doubts and if the cloth has been scientifically dated AD 1260 - 1390, then we have again a problem. A few years ago I was processing the image of the shroud with the help of some computer programs without adding or subtracting anything to the image just applying some filters. I remember it was around midnight when this picture pop up on my computer screen. Since then I have it always with me and I seriously think this is the wounded face of our Saviour. Just switch off the light, take a bit of distance from your monitor and see... View attachment 767
That is amazing. Jose, what evidence you have. Not only the existence of our Saviour. But the evidence of the brutality our Lord endured. It doesn't look like the face of a 33 year old. This is because of the injuries. The nose looks broken. The cheek bones look battered. We can only imagine how His Mother was feeling seeing His face. Jose. You do believe! I'm glad, but more importantly, Jesus is happy.
JOSE' SAID :"Again, it is the type of miracle where there are doubts and if the cloth has been scientifically dated AD 1260 - 1390, then we have again a problem." Sorry but this theory has been thrown out by the very inventor of carbon dating, years ago! because of bacteria on the shroud! If you didn't know this I have serious doubts that you know much about the shroud......
Carmel333, I could explain to you why this old hypothesis of the bacterial coating is wrong and nobody amount the shroud community takes it seriously. Simply because the amount of bacteria you need to have the Shroud dated by 14C with an error of 1200 years ... there would be kilos of bacteria coating necessary. This has been discussed to extenuation. Just look at Internet. There are some other theories like the one of the patch added posteriorly to the manufacture of the cloth, and that of the radiation that could have changed the amount of the C isotope. But anyways, those are just hypothesis and none of them has been clearly demonstrated. A main point is that the Church does not allow access to the Shroud for new testing. To be honest, I do not consider myself an expert on the Shroud. There are some who know much more than me and I have participated in some experiments and analysis together with some of them, for instance with Giulio Fanti, and always have approached this issue as a scientist, leaving my religious believe aside. We also have some publications. I can tell you that there is no way to show today that the dating was wrong. But there are other methods to show that the cloth is older than what the 14C says. For instance the type of manufacture etc... Anyways, it was not my point to discuss here with the argument of authority... if you know better.... good for you. God bless you.
I'm sorry to be obstinate but our USA NASA scientists have already proven the Shroud to be authentic, not only by NOT being able to prove the image was put there by ANY natural known means, but also because history traces the Shroud way before the supposed carbon dating results. I would think a scientist would be satisfied with their conclusion, which tested out any and all artificial means of applying the image on the cloth. Also, as any scientist knows, carbon dating testing is severly flawed, and would probably be the very last evidence they would put confidence in with something like a piece of linen. Scientists have also debunked carbon dating, by putting fresh bones in salt water, and seeing them carbon date to a million years!
Who are your USA NASA scientist and where is this information published? I think you are stuck with the theory by John Jacson who used the VP-8 Image Analyzer to reveal the kind of 3D characteristics of the image. Jackson's theory is that of the radiation effect. Carmel333, one thing is to say that STILL nobody knows how the image was formed, and a completely different one is to say that it is the effect of a supernatural event. Nobody has proved to date the latest. And we have tried hard! Probably, here we find again the pattern that somebody was referring to regarding miracles. It could be a miracle but we have no ways to show that the image was the result of one. I think there is still a lot to do on the Shroud but the first think is to prove for once and convince everybody that the cloth is genuine and not an artifact from 1200 AD. In summary, I believe it is genuine and miraculous but I cannot show it. I think this was not the topic of this thread so we should stop now. Regards, Jose
