This is the story of Tom Collins a Methodist lawyer from the panhandle in Texas and how Our Lady led him to the faith : ] ]
This guy, Tom Collins seems very,very remarkable. Did you notice how he converted 12 Episcopalians at the one hit??? Yet he is so very, very ordinary. He reminds me of a farmer from Ireland called Eddie Stone whose story seems so similiar. Yet Our Lady selected s him for a particular mission. His humility is very evident. His story comes on 12 parts, but they have only uploaded 3 to utube at the minute. I'll post the other 9 in the next few days, I think the best is yet to come.
padraig I just watched these videos now as i didnt have time over Christmas. They are very good and yes i can see the similarity with Eddie Stones who was a butcher by the way. It gives great hope to hear these inspirational stories. Mary
Mary, there is a very good magazine my father used to get from Rome called, 'Vatican Today' and you can also scan it online. I subscribe to it. I noticed it put up its ten top people for the tear and its top was an American Philosophy Professor called Francis Beckwith who has come back to the Faith. Its a very remarkable story. I was touched that one of the key people he credits with his conversion was his Italian grandmother whom he stayed with while studying In New York. The granny didn't argue with him, she seems to have just prayed for him and given him good example; which is everything of course: A Long Spiritual Journey Home The story of the conversion of a philosopher By William Doino When Francis Beckwith woke up one day last May, his world had dramatically changed. Suddenly, his name was the stuff of national headlines, as he found himself the center of a huge controversy -- and the subject of hundreds, if not thousands, of commentaries. He checked his email box that morning and found it overwhelmed: his server’s monthly bandwith limit was about to be reached only five days into May. The messages left there expressed a range of views, some friendly, some not, but almost all filled with emotion. What had this Professor done to provoke such an uproar? In a word, he had become Catholic. Of course, becoming Catholic is not that unusual -- countless people are received into the Church every year. But Beckwith was not your average Catholic. He was, at the time of his conversion, one of the nation’s leading Evangelical thinkers, a tenured Associate Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University in Texas. And not only that: he was the reigning president of the Evangelical Theological Society of America, the premier intellectual association of American Evangelicals. Resigning that post to become a Catholic is, well, something akin to the President of Notre Dame stepping down to become a Baptist minister. Moreover, Beckwith had been raised Catholic, so his newfound religion was not so much a "conversion" as it was a return to the faith, after many years away from Rome. How and why Professor Beckwith rediscovered his Catholic faith is a fascinating story, which may yet make a great book. It begins, oddly enough, with his childhood in Las Vegas -- not a city known for its spirituality and search for truth. Francis was born in 1960, the eldest of four children, to Elizabeth and Harold Beckwith, a Catholic couple who moved their family to Vegas, for business reasons, in the 1960s. Bringing up four children in "Sin City," as Las Vegas is known, wasn’t an ideal situation, but the Beckwiths did what they could to protect their children from spiritual and moral harm. Like other Catholic parents, they relied heavily on their Church to educate Francis, and instill in him a love and understanding of his faith. Unfortunately, catechesis was not adequately calibrated to respond winsomely to the spirit of the age. "One of the things many Catholic didn’t get at the time," he says now, "is just how hostile the dominant culture was to Catholic thought. Catholic education wasn’t equipping the young to respond to that challenge in any intelligent way." There was no coherent presentation of orthodox Catholic thinking in Beckwith’s middle school or high school; catechesis was in a state of disarray. Yearning for objective truth, but discouraged by what he saw, Francis began to look elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. He began attending Catholic charismatic groups, and then Protestant revivals, and Bible studies. Out of respect and tradition, he continued to attend Mass, but felt alienated from the increasingly strange liturgy he encountered, and the insipid sermons preached. Much like the post-Conciliar Church, Beckwith’s emotions became a swirling mess. Recalling his confusion at the time, he says today: "Back then, I didn’t know who I was." It’s the lament of a generation, something that could be said by thousands upon thousands of similiarly confused Catholics, caught up in the spiritual maelstrom following Vatican II. They were searching for guidance, and the Church seemed unable to provide them. Although the post-Conciliar era has been mercilessly lampooned, sometimes unfairly, few would deny that the Church, at that time, suffered grieviously, taking many souls with it. It was a time when feelings trumped everything, vocations plummeted and the study of Augustine and Aquinas gave way to readings of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. It was an age when liturgical enthusiasts exchanged the Mass of the Ages for ballerinas and clowns, and the Ave Maria was dropped for out-of-tune guitars, tambourines and harmonicas. Needless to say, the battered post-Conciliar Church was in no position to help Beckwith clarify his faith. It was the burgeoning Evangelical movement which rescued him. Roaming the streets of Las Vegas one day, Beckwith came upon several Christian bookstores -- yes, they exist there -- and was introduced to the writings of leading Evangelical writers: Norman L. Geisler, John Warwick Montgomery, Francis Schaeffer and R. C. Sproul, among others. They, unlike the Catholic teachers he was familiar with, had no doubts about the "Great Tradition" of Christianity, nor were they afraid to vigorously defend it. True, they drew their theology from the Protestant Reformation-and thus often assailed particular Catholic doctrines and practices, which Francis had become accustomed to -- but at least they made elementary sense. Partly because he was unaware of the rich heritage of Catholic apologetics, and partly because the Evangelical authors he studied really did express many basic Christian truths -- often brilliantly --Beckwith came under their sway. In fact he became an active Evangelical, and remained one for more than 30 years. Considering the alternatives, that wasn’t a bad thing. Beckwith could easily have abandoned Christianity altogether, or even fallen into a life of disrepute. That he did not is a credit to the Evangelical community, which, whatever its shortcomings, instilled in Beckwith a thorough knowledge of the Gospel, a commitment to Christian ethics, and a sheer love for Jesus Christ. To this day, he cherishes what he learned from his Evangelical friends and mentors. Unlike others who’ve left the faith, Beckwith never developed anything approaching hostility toward the Church. "I’ve known too many serious Catholics -- not least my parents and siblings -- who love Jesus to the depths of their soul, to believe they were ‘lost.’ I always felt, even when I was a rigorous Evangelical, that you could be a practicing Catholic and a true Christian at the same time." Beckwith’s openness toward Catholicism made it much easier to accept his mother’s advice, after he earned a bachelor’s degree in philosophy from the University of Nevada at Las Vegas: she urged him to get his PhD under the Jesuits at Fordham, in the Bronx -- "one of the best pieces of advice I ever got." Off to New York he went. His experience at Fordham was entirely positive, having a profound impact on his intellectual development. Among Beckwith’s teachers were some of the finest philosophic minds in American Catholicism: W. Norris Clarke, Gerald McCool and Quentin Lauer, Jesuit priests all. They gave him a deep appreciation of the underpinnings of Catholic theology, helping formulate his views on God, the human person, and the natural moral law. Francis never clashed with any of his Catholic professors, as most everything he learned was consistent with Evangelical Christianity. More, his teachers welcomed Evangelicals into their class, precisely because they knew they took their faith seriously: "Fr. Clarke actually joked to me that I was more Catholic than any of his Catholic students." An interesting sidenote to all this is that, while he attended Fordham, Beckwith lived in Brooklyn, with his Italian grandmother, Frances Guido. A long-time resident of New York, she was also a devout Catholic, who went to Mass daily and said the rosary. Did she know her grandson was an Evangelical? "Yes; but she was very happy that I was studying with these Jesuit priests, whom she trusted -- somehow, someway --would eventually bring me back to the Church." After obtaining his doctorate in philosophy from Fordham, Beckwith went on to hold full-time academic appointments at the University of Nevada Las Vegas (1989-1996), Whittier College (1996-1997), Trinity International University (1997-2002), and Princeton University (2002-2003) before being hired by Baylor, the world’s largest Baptist university. He became a leading thinker within Evangelical circles -- and noted opponent of the secular establishment -- constantly expanding his knowledge and debating skills, and earning a graduate degree in law along the way at Washington University in St. Louis. The more he intensified his studies, however, the closer he came to the Catholic world view, even if he didn’t quite realize it at the time. The first real sign that Beckwith’s views were shifting was an article he wrote for Touchstone magazine in 2005, entitled "Vatican Bible School: What John Paul II Can Teach Evangelicals," a celebration of John Paul’s encyclical, Fides et Ratio: On the Relationship between Faith and Reason. In it, Beckwith urged Evangelicals to embrace "the Pope’s insights on how certain philosophies will, because of their own internal logic, undermine confidence in the truth of the Gospel message." Treating John Paul as a brother in Christ, indeed one of the world’s eminent Christian leaders, Beckwith continued: "The Pope is interested in saving souls, and he understands that bad philosophy, if not challenged by good philosophy, will make the Church’s soul-saving more difficult." Early the following year, Beckwith attended a conference on "John Paul II and Philosophy" at Boston College, delivering a paper which incorporated many of his Touchstone article’s insights. He argued that Protestants who questioned Christianity’s early creeds, as defined in the major Church Councils, held "to an incoherent point of view on faith, reason, and the nature of the Christian university." At the end of his address, Laura Garcia, a BC philosophy professor, and herself a Catholic convert from Evangelicalism, asked Beckwith a simple question: "Frank, why aren’t you a Catholic yourself?" The usually fluid Professor, rarely at a loss for words, was stumped. He didn’t have an answer -- at least not immediately. And the reason he didn’t, he reasons now, is because, in accepting the Holy Spirit’s guidance in those early Church Councils, he also implicitly accepted the Catholic understanding of the magisterium. And that got him thinking. Although he finally answered Garcia’s question by appealing to the doctrines of the Reformation, saying they remained essential, something in his heart had been dislodged -- or rather, put back into place. A short time later, he purchased a copy of Truth and Tolerance by Joseph Ratzinger, who just recently had been elected Pope Benedict XVI. Studying the text, he became more and more impressed with its wisdom, and found the Pope’s Christian teachings compatible with his own. He wondered if he was alone in his views, as a Protestant, so he called up a close friend -- a prominent Evangelical scholar -- and read him a passage from the book, about whether theology is really knowledge, and asked him to guess the author. After his friend reeled off a list of names -- all Evangelical theologians -- Beckwith interrupted and said, "No, no, it's none of them.... It's Ratzinger, the new Pope!"-- provoking the reply: "So he’s one of us!" At that point, wheels really began turning in Beckwith’s mind, even as he assumed the presidency of the Evangelical Theological Society, in November, 2006. A month before, he had been asked to comment on a paper by fellow Christian philosopher -- and Catholic convert -- Jay Budziszewski, at the University of Dallas. After he spoke, Beckwith and his wife, Frankie (also an Evangelical, with increasing stirrings toward Rome) had breakfast with the Budziszewskis. The topic at hand? Why the Beckwiths were not yet Catholic -- a question Frankie herself had previously asked her husband, and now pursued with the Budziszewskis. What followed was a three-hour conversation about the theological issues that still formed a stumbling block for Beckwith: justification, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the teaching authority of the Church, and the primacy of the Pope. A skilled teacher himself, Professor Budziszewski patiently answered each question, explaining how he once had had similar objections, until he studied the (very Catholic) Church Fathers, and overcame his doubts. Impressed, but not yet convinced, Beckwith decided to read those authors himself, free of Protestant assumptions. That’s when a light went on. "When I read the Fathers, those closest to the apostles, what I discovered is that all the key Catholic doctrines were already there, and sincerely believed, even if they hadn’t been officially promulgated by the Church yet." But one teaching that wasn’t there was the key Reformation doctrine on justification -- the idea that grace is imputed to the Christian, rather than infused. In fact, the more he studied the Reformation doctrine, the less he found support for it in early Christianity. "The big debate boils down to this: at baptism, or whenever conversion occurs, are you infused with God’s grace, and do you have a certain responsibility to follow Christ given that grace -- the Catholic view -- or, is justification merely a legal declaration from God, stating that your simply declared righteous based on Christ’s righteousness, but no grace is infused to you -- the Protestant view. A number of Reformed thinkers will point to the Council of Orange -- the Council which came out against the Pelagian heresy -- as holding to a kind of pre-Reformed Protestant view on justification. But if you read the canons of that Council carefully, what you find taught is infused righteousness. This doesn’t mean the Church teaches justification by works, or ‘works righteousness’ -- on the contrary, the Church has condemned justification by works. The Catholic position, often misunderstood or misrepresented, is that everything we do as Christians is the result of Christ’s free grace, in the sense that when we do something good, or participate in the sacraments, we open ourselves up to God’s free gifts. We are not working for our salvation, or earning points to get to Heaven; what we are doing is allowing God’s grace to change us. In other words, the authentic Christian life is not merely getting into Heaven -- its getting Heaven into you." Beckwith’s study of early Church Fathers, as well as his readings of both John Paul II and Benedict XVI, not only brought him to the doorstep of the Church, but convinced him that "the Reformation doctrine on forensic justification was really a novelty, historically." That’s not to say that the Reformers didn’t have legitimate criticisms, for many abuses were taking place in the Church. It is to say that there was no sound reason to leave the Church Christ founded, inventing new doctrines along the way. Too often, says Beckwith, the Protestant reformers were engaged in fighting Catholic phantoms. "What the best of the Reformation fought against was not true Catholicism, or true Christianity, but Christianity abused and confused," he says. "The true essence of Christianity was always there, being taught and preached in the Church, however poorly certain Catholics, including even Popes, practiced it in their personal lives." The Reformation was a religious tragedy and shocked the Catholic Church to its very core; but to the extent the Reformers helped bring about the Council of Trent -- "a marvelous document," insists Beckwith -- one might see it as a welcome challenge, ushering in the Catholic Reformation. Beckwith’s search for truth continued, as he eagerly read more of Joseph Ratzinger’s works: In the Beginning, Introduction to Christianity, Values in a Time of Upheaval, and especially Called to Communion. Enriched by Benedict’s teaching, Beckwith began to understand that by embracing the Catholic vision, he wasn’t repudiating the best Evangelicalism had to offer, rather, he was re-discovering and expanding it. In fact, it may have been a Protestant scholar, Mark Noll, who helped move Beckwith the most. Noll’s provocative work, Is the Reformation Over?, argues that the modern rapproachemont between Evangelicals and the Catholic Church, demonstrated by the ecumenical Joint Declaration on Justification (1999), has largely resolved that key Reformation debate. It is a theme the great French theologian, Louis Bouyer -- another convert to Catholicism -- began 50 years before, in his classic, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism. When Beckwith came to the point of no return, the point where he thought, "if I reject the Catholic Church, I may be rejecting the Church that Christ Himself founded," he realized "that wasn’t a risk I was willing to take." Although he had intended to delay his conversion, at least until his ETS presidency ended, so as not to create a public spectacle, something unexpected happened. In April of 2007, Beckwith received a call from his teenage nephew, asking if he, Professor Beckwith, would serve as his sponsor for Confirmation. Of course, the Church requires sponsors be practicing Catholics, which Beckwith, at that point, still was not. He told his nephew he would seriously consider it, and then asked his wife, "Honey, what should I do?" He may have already known the answer -- and so, perhaps, did his wife, who was undergoing a similiar journey herself. In March of 2007, the Beckwiths had already met with their local priest, Fr. Timothy Vaverek, Pastor of St. Joseph Church in Bellmead, Texas, announcing their desire to seek full communion with the Church. As a baptized Catholic, Francis only had to go to Confession; his wife entered RCIA, the normal program for prospective converts. The idea was that both would formally return to the Church at the end of Beckwith’s ETS presidency, in November. But the call from his nephew accelerated all that, and brought them "home," so to speak, ahead of time. The rest, as they say, is history -- inspiring Catholics everywhere. Asked if he thinks his nephew’s call was Providential, perhaps Heaven’s way of prodding him to have the courage of his convictions, before it was entirely comfortable to do so, Beckwith says, "I really don’t know. But I have no other explanation." These days, in addition to his busy teaching and lecturing schedule, Beckwith spends most of his time with his wife and friends in Woodway, Texas; and blogging at Francisbeckwith.com. He also continues to produce acclaimed books. As noted, even before his recent celebrity status, he was a highly respected Christian philosopher, known for his forceful and articulate defense of the Christian world view. Among his published works are a refutation of David Hume, the influential 18th-century skeptic; responses to secularism and relativism; critical studies of the Mormon and Bahai religions; and several works on the pro-life ethic, including his latest, Defending Life: A Moral and Legal Case Against Abortion Choice. Published by the prestigious Cambridge University Press, Defending Life is a profound and vigorous defense of the right to life, as well as a comprehensive rebuttal to every conceivable argument in favor of abortion. It has already received sterling reviews, across the political spectrum, including the periodicals America and National Review. Reflecting on all that has transpired during the last year, the Beckwiths consider themselves richly blessed, not least because of the renewed vitality they see operating in the Church. Best of all, this "dynamic orthodoxy," as its been called, has been embraced by the Beckwiths local parish, under Fr. Vaverek. His guidance and spiritual direction have been priceless, instrumental in their conversion and formation as Catholics. "I would never have predicted," says Professor Beckwith, gratefully, "that it would take a professorship at the world’s largest Baptist university in the heart of Texas to bring us in contact with a godly priest who would help guide us into the Catholic Church." The experience has been invigorating, and quite different from the hesitant and confused Catholicism offered him back in the seventies. "The Church has awakened, and I am very optimistic about its future, especially when I interact with the young at Catholic conferences." Strong enough to attract illustrious converts again, the contemporary Church may finally have come full circle, and rediscovered the eternal truths of its roots... just as Francis Beckwith has. Somewhere, his Italian grandmother is smiling.
What a wonderful testimony! Padraig, Leave it to those marvelous Church Fathers. Mix them with a little humility and a dose of intellectual honesty and you discover an irresistable recipe for conversion. I have talked with some evangelicals who outright deny the clear language of the Fathers, but this is simply because these blind brothers refuse to let the Fathers speak for themselves. Everthing must be compared to the false standards of sola fide and imputed righteousness, and so the veil remains over their eyes. It grieves me so. Lord have mercy! Praise God for these brave converts who must sacrifice so much to cross the Tiber. Great is their joy. Great will be their reward! In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
I feel very sorry for Protestants at the minute, Terry. We are heading into great storms to come. In our case, as Catholics we are on the Barque of Peter, which is not to say it will be easy for us either , but we have Christ's promise and will survive. But for Protestants , who depend so much on subjective feelings and opinions to show them the way, in their millions of little boats, what is to become of them?// Those that can must cling close to Peter to survive, as indeed the dream of Saint John Bosco , points out.
Padraig, Thanks for posting this incredible story of conversion. I may just have to get a subscription to The Vatican. A couple of things struck me about this article: "One of the things many Catholic didn’t get at the time," he says now, "is just how hostile the dominant culture was to Catholic thought.” This hostility still very much exists. I work in a secular hospital; however, they do have a chaplain program which consists of one staff chaplain (an openly lesbian Protestant), and a number of internists from many denominations, including at this time a Catholic Nun (who doesn’t wear a habit) and a Franciscan brother (who does wear his robe). On numerous occasions I have heard various derogatory remarks. I once heard one chaplain complain that “those Romans come and perform their rituals (or something to that effect) and then leave.” The contempt in his voice when he said “those Romans” was very evident. Just yesterday we had a patient in our unit who passed on, and a priest from the local parish came and gave the last rites, and he stayed to console the widow for a few minutes. Just after he left, one of the staff chaplains arrived and at one point I overheard him say, “You know how those Catholics are--they stick around just long enough to make sure there’s someone here to provide comfort. Then they leave.” Sad, but I don’t believe they are aware of their own hostility. I’ve never said anything them in rebuke. I just try to set an example by being a good and faithful person. "The big debate boils down to this: at baptism, or whenever conversion occurs, are you infused with God’s grace, and do you have a certain responsibility to follow Christ given that grace -- the Catholic view” This is a point I begin to make in the first chapter of the book I’m working on. Your posting this article, Padraig, was very timely. This along with an email I received this morning seem to me to be signs that God indeed wants me to finish this work, something I was beginning to wonder about. Terry, it is wonderful that we see these conversions happening. On the other hand, apostasy has begun: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...pdate0107.html I am sad to say that this priest accused of sex abuse is the former pastor of my parish; he was relieved of duty by the Bishop after these accusations were made. A good friend of mine who has been a close friend to him for many, many years does not believe he is guilty of any of the charges. I just don't know. However, I do know that what he is doing now is wrong. Here is the web site: http://www.praiseandworshipcenter.net/ Here is the official statement by the Diocese: STATEMENT OF THE DIOCESE OF PHOENIX Re: The Praise and Worship Center January 3, 2008 The Praise and Worship Services being led by Dale Fushek, a priest of the Diocese of Phoenix on administrative leave, and Mark Dippre, a priest who left public ministry to enter into a civil marriage and a priest not in good standing, are not endorsed by the Catholic Church. Both of these men have been ordained Catholic priests and ministered in the Diocese of Phoenix. Their actions are not in union with the Catholic Church and may potentially mislead well intentioned Catholics and other members of the Christian faithful. It is important for the faithful to know that both priests are acting contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church and remain disobedient to directives of the Bishop of Phoenix to whom they pledged obedience and respect when they were ordained to the priesthood. The Diocese of Phoenix wishes to express its grave concern for Catholics who may be misled or confused by the actions of Dale Fushek and Mark Dippre. Therefore, the Diocese of Phoenix does not endorse the actions of these priests and we encourage Catholics to refrain from attending or supporting the Praise and Worship Center. We remind Catholics that the ultimate form of praise and worship is and always will be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and we urge them to keep the Mass as the center of their lives. There is no substitution for the graces received at Mass and no prayer more edifying. I am greatly saddened by all of this. We need to pray for these two fallen priests and also for all those they are leading astray.
Hi Darrel. here is a link to read some of, 'Inside the Vatican Magazine', run by very good, devout, Orthodox American Catholics some of whom live and work in Rome. You can get email alerts from it for each online issue and get it posted. Its run by a guy called Dr Robert Moynihan: http://www.insidethevatican.com/itv-newsflash.htm You know I sense that hostility more from my fellow Catholics often than i do from Protestants. Sometimes I feel a real chill. Since our new Church has been built here I have been asking the Parish sister when they are going to move the beautiful statue of Our Lady from our old Church. I am very fond of it, it is of the Immaculate Conception, I have prayed in front of it most of my life since I was a small child.. Anyway they promised and promised, then last weel I was told it would not be coming, I was told it would be too dangerous. I asked why and I was told there is no place for a statue in the CHurch nowhere safe to put a statue of saints, the Sacred Heart zilch. It might get knocked over and 'Hurt a child'. I am afraid to ask for maybe a picture of Our Lady, maybe it would cause the Church to burn. Like lighting candles....but then there is no picture or statue to burn them in front of. But its like a weird errie hostility to my questions, as though they were unhappy with me, I am causing trouble or something. I don't want to seem like I am whinging, its not the end of the world, but I kind of stay away from my old church now and stick to the wonderful little chapel in the Poor Calres Convent which is full of statues and it seems like they talk about Mary with every other word. I read an acciunt from one young seminarian in ther USA which made me think. He said pretty well all the vocations in his seminary came about as a result of Medugorje, but none of the young men dare mention Medugorje as a source of their calling to any of the priests or they would be thrown out on their ears.
Padraig, its just the same in Ireland. i believe many if not all vocations are now coming as a result of a visit to M.edujorge but they cant mention this in the seminary or they would be shown the door. They dont like Divine Mercy devotions either. Many good vocations are being lost. Mary
Inside the Vatican I also have a subscription to "Inside the Vatican" and emailed the article on to two Protestant friends who totally enjoyed it. There is a little bubbling up for them, of who the Church Fathers were and who is Mary? how does she fit into things. I see a movement within the group of wanting to get closer to the source and wanting to know the history of their beginnings. I can only hope, pray and continue to provide sources for them. Lee
A curious thing happened here last week , Lee. A female Minister came as a guest speaker to a local Presbyterian country church and the resident Minister refused her permission to speak from the pulpit, citing Saint Paul. I was speaking to my two Protestant friends at work about this and they said the Minister was wrong , that Saint Paul was an anti female bigot and so was Martin Luther Calvin and John Knox. They believed that the Letters of Saint Paul should be set aside as the raving of a bigot . I knew that they opposed homosexual 'marriage' and reminded them that Protestant folks like themselves often quoted Saint Paul as a source against this and if Martin Luther had said Sola Scriptura and they were ignoring and discarding scripture what were they left with?? But he said that it was the Gospels alone we should look to and how we interpreted them was our own personal opinion. I noticed his face got redder and redder as the conversation went on. I had no intention to argue about this or box anyone into a corner, I'm just honestly curious. But it seems to me a lot of teaching on this is moving from traditional Protestant teachings; I never heard anyone before talking about dumping Saint Paul's writings. It made my ears perk up. I wonder if this is a new modern thing we are seeing. I have a feeling that more and more of them are skating on very thin ice and if many like your friends are thinking this themselves. I'm sorry now, Lee I never studied more theology, Lee, maybe this year!!! :roll:
Padraig, that's one of the strangest things I've ever heard. I have no idea what they are talking about. Wonder what else they would like to do away with in Scripture? Lee
I wonder if its a new modern Protestant perspective? I wonder if many Protestants would agree with this?/ I think it goes against the so called Reformation. I am scratching my head, it left me speechless when he said this.... Saint Paul is a very great favourite of mine, as you say, Lee if you dump Saint Paul who or what is next?? I suppose Leviticus must be a target for the same reason. Strange. Maybe his face was growing so red for a good reason. :wink:
This is confusing. Who invited her to speak at the resident minister's church? Surely, he knew what guests were invited to speak at his church. The fact that she was female AND a minister didn't seem to bother him, yet he refused to let her speak from the pulpit because she was a woman? These are strange times.
I think Deanna the Presbyterian Church here had an opt out clause several years ago when they introduced woman ministers. This meant that any minister who did not approve of women ministers could 'opt out' of having them preach in their Churches. I would presume this goes for the Elders too. The thought occurred to me that we have female Ministers talking in Clonard monastery from time to time especially during the Novena to Our Lady of Perpetual Succour in June, during Mass. If then a Protestant female Minister can preach during mass, why is it that I have never heard of a Catholic laywoman preach there?/ I wonder if the Church in genreral permits this.... I won't start to think about this as it will get me confused :shock:
Cannot do. Padraig, I believe some religious orders may have some liturgical exemptions; otherwise, only priests and/or deacons are suppose to preach after the Gospel during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Does this answer your question or are you referring to something else? In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Well, the thought occurred to me Terry, that I have never heard a Catholic layperson, male of female preaching at Mass, but that during the Novena Protestant Ministers male and female preach. Perhaps , as you say this is because it is a Novena mass and it is the Redemptorists a, a religious Order.
Mario, that's what I thought as well. But when I was sponsoring a young friend into the church in a very liberal church in Berkeley they let a lay woman, very popular in that parish, give the Homily. I almost fell over. Then I met their Bishop and understood what was going on. He was running his own ship they way he wanted. I had to laid it all down. The chasm is wide. Lee
Its hard Lee and Terry to know sometimes what the norms are. I was just curious. I was originally thinking about the Persbyterian Minister not allowing a female Minister preach in his Church and it suddenly came into my mind that a female Minister preaches in Clonard Monastery every year. I had thought of St Paul and , well if it applies in a Presbyterian Church , well maybe it should apply in a Catholic Church, especially when I have not heard Catholic lay people, male and female preach. I think Lee, maybe I am wrong but the Church wants the priest to say the homily, but maybe I am wrong, Ihave not read up on all this. I notice the Pope seems to be steering his own course on this and I can't help thinking he is being strongly inspired by the Holy Spirit. I think he is a saint, like JPII. But I think some of the Bishops in France , Germany and other places have smoke coming out their ears at him.
