The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Don't know if anyone saw this televised signing by President Trump of the "Right to Try" bill that just happened, benefitting those with terminal illnesses, giving them a chance to go elsewhere for care or try experimental drugs w/o all of the hoops to jump through; speeding up drugs getting to market that would help them and others; bringing down prescription prices and more. It was very very touching with some of those suffering from such long term and debilitating, dependent illnesses, along with families, surrounding him, one a little boy who was so enjoying the special attention shown him by the President. Where has there been anyone who has worked so hard to actually do so many things for the forgotten ones...rather than most who talk and do nothing and protect their political fiefdoms? Just the energy of the man is amazing....and heart!
     
  2. So what will this Vatican planned new all inclusive liturgy have to "sacrifice" for "success".....if it wants to join ALL "faiths"?

    STUPID IDEAS: Church of England Pushes For More Transgender Priests In New “Radical Christian Inclusion” Drive To Increase Membership

    Bishops in the Church of England have just begun to ramp up efforts to recruit women who claim to be men and men who claim to be women as new leaders of the church in an effort to present the church as a place of “diversity.”

    A newly released guidance by the Diocese of Lichfield begins, “you may have heard about initiatives happening nationally in the area of human sexuality and gender identity”, before diving straight into SJW Territory.

    “Bishop Michael has convened a listening group,” the document continues, “the group consists of a range of people, identifying as lesbian, gay, bisexual, same-sex attracted, and heterosexual; single and partnered; celibate and married” (don’t ask me for a second what the difference between gay and same-sex attracted are, not sure I want to know).

    Calling it out for what it is, before delving into bullet points, the document proclaims “This, we believe, is the starting point of that radical Christian inclusion for which the Archbishops have called.”

    The fourth and last bullet points lay out their objective far more clearly: “We wish to affirm that LGBT+ people can be called to roles of leadership and service in the local church. We very much hope that they, like everyone else, feel encouraged to serve on PCCs, or as churchwardens and worship leaders, for instance, and are supported in exploring vocations to licensed lay and ordained ministries. Nobody should be told that their sexual or gender identity in itself makes them an unsuitable candidate for leadership in the Church.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...stian-inclusion-drive-to-increase-membership/
     
  3. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest


    I've adjusted it to start at the 22.00 mark.
     
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  4. sunburst

    sunburst Powers

    Thank you, SgCatholic, watching this gives one hope and makes me proud to be an American. The little boy at the end inclining to hug the President spoke a million. ;):)
     
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  6. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    I forgot to mention what is also very crucial in regards to the Church's scandal in Chile imho, the Chilean bishop's appear to have disregarded the Pope's 'zero tolerance' policy and created their own policy for dealing with the clergy's sexual abuse of minors. This new policy was promulgated in 2015, I wonder if anyone at the Vatican was aware of this.

    In addition, the only Catholic news agency to "highlight" this that I could find was NCR which included a link to the BishopAccountability.org's database along with the statements that include this information. It states in this NCR article that the database was only released this past January,

    "Release of the BishopAccountability.org database came shortly after the Vatican announced Jan. 10 that it would be taking control of a Catholic religious association in Peru that has been accused of facilitating the spiritual, psychological and physical abuse of children."
    https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/clergy-abuse-database-releases-new-names-chile
    I think it might be best that everyone here reads the statements that proceed the database itself...

    ****
    Publicly Accused Priests, Brothers, Sisters, and Deacons in Chile
    [Ver también el banco de datos en español.]
    BishopAccountability.org has examined news and court archives and identified nearly 80 clergy in Chile publicly accused of sexually abusing minors.

    The database reveals the distinctive aspects of the Catholic abuse crisis in Chile, and the degree to which much remains hidden. Most of the cases detailed below involve abuse that has occurred since 2000 and was reported to law enforcement quickly -- within just a few years of occurrence. We know from Catholic abuse data published elsewhere that such cases comprise a small fraction of the total scope of the problem.

    It is worth noting that the factors that have caused significant disclosure elsewhere of secret church files and abusive priests’ names – widespread litigation by victims, investigations of church entities by prosecutors, and inquiries by government commissions – have not so far occurred in Chile.

    This list, then, is a fraction of the total number of accused clerics who would be known if Chile's church leaders were required to report to law enforcement, if its legal system allowed victims more time to bring criminal and civil charges, or if dioceses and religious orders were investigated by prosecutors or state commissions. In Australia, which has half as many Catholics as Chile and a comparable number of active priests and brothers (around 5,000), a recently concluded government inquiry counted child sex abuse allegations against more than 1,100 male clergy.

    The lack of external pressure allows Catholic church leaders in Chile to act with impunity. They openly reinstate, for instance, priests who have faced multiple allegations of abuse. Chile’s senior churchman, Santiago archbishop Cardinal Ricardo Ezzati, announced in December 2016 that Cristián Precht Bañados had fulfilled his canonical sentence of five years’ suspension from ministry. A church investigation had uncovered 20 victims of Precht, ranging from age 15 to 35. Yet Precht is now allowed again to say Mass publicly, Ezzati said; he has regained “his fundamental exercise of the rights he has as a presbyter."

    Ezzati's lenience toward Precht is reflected in the Chilean bishops' latest abuse policy: Care and Hope: Guidelines of the Episcopal Conference of Chile to Deal with the Cases of Sexual Abuse of Minors.

    Promulgated in 2015, the 80-page document pledges pastoral care of victims and a commitment to protecting children. Yet its omissions are telling. It contains no ‘zero tolerance’ provision. It instead gives the bishop the option of a range of penalties (see paragraph 60, page 42). It also contains no promise by the bishops to inform law enforcement of abuse; instead, it reminds victims and their relatives that it is their responsibility to report (see paragraphs 53-56 on page 40). Finally, it omits any recognition of the church’s role in making reparations to the victims. In a section addressing reparation, it notes that this is the obligation of the perpetrating priest (see paragraph 77, page 49).

    BishopAccountability.org presents this profile of child sex abuse in the Chilean church in the hopes of facilitating more disclosure and more accountability. This is our second database of accused clergy in Latin America (see our Argentina database); we eventually will produce accused priest databases for all countries with significant Catholic populations. (Also see the Chilean database in Spanish.)

    This database collates information from media coverage and court filings, which exist only because of the courage of survivors and the diligence of journalists. The database is entirely dependent on their work and a tribute to it.

    Contact us: please email us at staff@bishop-accountability.org with corrections and additions. Thank you!

    If you are interested, please continue reading here for the database itself, http://www.bishop-accountability.org/Chile/ .
     
  7. AED

    AED Powers

    There is simply no reply to be made to this. There are no words.
     
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  8. Isn't he a wee bit late to this party?

    POPE FRANCIS TO CONVENE GLOBAL WARMING SUMMIT AT THE VATICAN


    Pope Francis will hold a gathering at the Vatican next week on man-made global warming, focusing on what oil companies and investment firms can do to curtail fossil fuel use and emissions.

    Major oil companies, including BP, ExxonMobil and Equinor are attending the conference, Axios reported Friday. The meeting will have “an emphasis on the energy transition of a ‘shared home'” laid out in his three-year-old encyclical Laudato Si, people familiar with the event told Axios. The University of Notre Dame helped put the event together, Axios reported.

    However, news of the climate summit comes amid Francis’ silence on Ireland voting to end its ban on abortion, which is only the latest Irish rebuke of the Catholic Church. Ireland became the first country to legalize gay marriage though a popular vote in 2015. The vote to repeal Ireland’s ban on abortion occurred in late May.

    “This is devastating for the Roman Catholic hierarchy,” Gail McElroy, professor of politics at Trinity College, told The New York Times. “It is the final nail in the coffin for them. They’re no longer the pillar of society, and their hopes of re-establishing themselves are gone.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/01/pope-francis-global-warming-summit-vatican/
     
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  9. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    :pBaah Humbug!
     
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  10. AED

    AED Powers

    Isn’t this the quintessential example of fiddling while Rome burns? Tired of it—to my back teeth as Dolours would say.
     
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  11. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    More like fiddling & waiting for 'Rome to heat up'!!
     
  12. picadillo

    picadillo Guest

    Praying for the grace of a happy death for PF and the St Gallens group
     
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  13. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    I don't think that the following article has been posted yet and I think that it provides a little more insight to what occurred regarding Pope Francis' recent meeting with the Chilean bishops,

    In private letter,
    Pope Francis told Chilean bishops their church’s “sin became the center of attention”

    Gerard O’Connell May 18, 2018 https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...ilean-bishops-their-churchs-sin-became-center
    [​IMG]
    Pope Francis arrives in procession with other bishops during Mass at the Maquehue Airport near Temuco, Chile, Jan. 17. (CNS photo/Paul Haring)

    Pope Francis pulled no punches in the letter he gave to the 34 Chilean bishops at their first encounter on May 15 to serve as the basis for their “reflection and prayer” over the following 24 hours. In it, he accuses them of enacting such “a transformation in the center” of the church in Chile that “its sin became the center of attention,” not Jesus Christ.

    In the 10-page text, obtained by Chile’s Canal 13 television, he presented a searing diagnosis of what had transformed this once prophetic and esteemed church in Latin America to one of the least respected. Led by its bishops, the pope wrote, “it turned in on itself in such a way that the consequences of all this came at a very high price: it became the center of attention.”

    He told them that, “the painful and shameful fact of the sexual abuse of minors, of the abuses of power, and of the abuses of conscience on the part of ministers of the church, as well as the form in which these situations happened, highlighted this change of center.”

    He based his diagnosis on the 2,300-page report given to him by Archbishop Charles Scicluna and Msgr. Jordi Bertomeu on their return from a special mission to Chile. Francis had asked them to go a few days after returning from his own visit to that country. They went at the end of February through early March to listen to the victims of sexual abuse by the Rev. Fernando Karadima. (A Vatican tribunal found the priest guilty of these crimes in 2011 and sentenced him to a life of prayer and penance). He did so because three victims—Juan Cruz, James Hamilton and Andrés Murillo—accused Bishop Juan Barros of Osorno of being present when they were abused and of covering it up, though the bishop denied it. Francis had strongly defended Bishop Barros up to that point for what he said was lack of evidence.

    But on receiving his envoys’ report, he realized that he had been given “untruthful and unbalanced information” by persons he did not identify. He called the three survivors to Rome and personally asked the pardon of each one for the wrong he and the church did them and acknowledged that he himself “was part of the problem.” At the same time he summoned all the Chilean bishops to Rome to discern together with him the measures to be taken in the short, medium and long terms to repair the damage done to the victims, to promote reconciliation in the Chilean church and to help it return to being a prophetic institution, with pastors who are up to the task.

    In this hitherto secret letter, Francis reminded the bishops that “an individual or an illustrious group can never pretend to be the totality of the People of God, and much less believe itself to be the authentic voice of its interpretation.” He was alluding in the first place to Father Karadima, a charismatic priest who exercised enormous influence among the young, especially those from the higher echelons of Chilean society, and attracted as many as 50 of them to the priesthood, four of whom became bishops, including the controversial Juan Barros.

    Francis denounced “the psychology of the elite,” which he appears to attribute to the bishops too and not only to Karadima’s circle, “ends by generating dynamics of division, separation, closed circles that result in a narcissistic and authoritarian spirituality, in which, instead of evangelizing, what is important is to feel oneself special, different from the others.”

    Francis told them, “Messianism, elitism and clericalism are all symptoms of this perversion in a way of being church.” He added, “Synonymous also of this perversion is the loss of a healthy consciousness of knowing that we belong to the holy, faithful People of God who were before us and—thank God—will be after us.”

    He referred to the “attitudes” of some of bishops toward “past and present facts” of abuse and told them frankly that “the problems that today exist in the church community [in Chile] are not resolved only by addressing concrete cases and reducing them to the removal of persons; this—and I say it clearly—has to be done, but it is not sufficient. It’s necessary to go beyond.”

    He said it is necessary to go “seek out the roots and the structures that permitted these concrete things to happen and to be perpetuated.”

    Francis told the bishops, “The aforementioned painful situations are indicators that something is bad in the church body.” It is necessary, therefore, not only “to address the concrete cases” but also “to discover the dynamics that made it possible for such attitudes and evils to occur.”

    “To remove persons, without checking the health of the body” is a false way ahead, he said.

    He called on them collectively and individually “to take responsibility” for what has happened and not pass the buck to another.

    “Please let us guard against the temptation to try to save ourselves, to save our reputation,” he said, “[because] the gravity of what has happened does not permit us to become experts at finding scapegoats.”

    Lest there be any doubt about the seriousness of the situation, Pope Francis, drawing on the Scicluna-Bertomeu report, referred to several concrete cases of the abuse of what he has called sex, power and conscience, including the inadequate ways these abuse cases had been dealt with up to now. He mentioned “grave defects” by bishops in dealing with reports of sexual abuse of minors and the slowness, or indeed the failure, to investigate some denunciations of abuse and “grave negligence” by bishops and religious superiors in protecting children from abuse. He said the report revealed that pressure was put on those who were giving testimony in abuse cases and that documents relevant for canonical trials were destroyed in church archives.

    RELATED STORIES
    Chilean bishops: We have come to Rome in ‘pain and shame’ May 14, 2018
    Pope Francis to host meeting with Chilean priests abused by Father Karadima May 22, 2018
    Pope Francis sending representatives to Chile on mission of ‘healing’ for sex abuse victims May 31, 2018

    He spoke about the failures in seminary formation and how some bishops and religious superiors had placed priests in charge of educational institutions who were suspected of being active homosexuals. He also mentioned that some men who were expelled from their religious orders for immoral conduct were subsequently incardinated into dioceses by bishops and given positions that put them in contact with minors. His message was clear: This cannot continue, and the bishops have to take collective and individual responsibility for these and many other wrongs.

    He concluded his document by reminding them “we are here conscious of being sinners who have been pardoned or sinners who want to be pardoned or sinners with a penitential opening, and this is our joy.” Indeed, he said, “we wish to be pastors in the style of Jesus wounded, dead and risen,” and “we wish to be a church that is capable of putting at its center that which is important: the service of its Lord in the hungry, in the prisoner, in the person who is thirsty, in the displaced person, in the naked, the sick and the abused.”

    More: Sexual Abuse


    Pope Francis to Chilean Catholics: Church Failed to Listen to Abuse Victims
    In a letter released yesterday the Holy Father said he is ashamed of the Church’s failures, and called for a commitment to ending the culture of abuse and cover-up.
    Elise Harris/CNA/EWTN News June 1, 2018 http://www.ncregister.com/daily-new...lics-church-failed-to-listen-to-abuse-victims

    VATICAN CITY —In a letter to Catholics in Chile on Thursday, Pope Francis said he is ashamed of the Church’s failure to listen to victims, and urged all the baptized to make a commitment to ending the culture of abuse and cover-up.

    continued...
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  14. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    continued from above...

    “Here resides one of our main faults and omissions: not knowing how to listen to victims,” the Pope said in his May 31 letter.

    Because of this inability to listen, “partial conclusions were drawn, which lacked crucial elements for a healthy and clear discernment,” he said, adding that “with shame I must say that we did not know how to listen and react in time.”

    The need to investigate the Chilean abuse crisis, he said, “was born when we saw that there were situations that we did not know how to see and hear. As a Church we could not continue to walk ignoring the pain of our brothers.”

    Francis stressed the importance of prayer and the role that the People of God have in the Church, saying that to distance oneself from the People of God “hastens us to the desolation and perversion of ecclesial nature.”

    “The fight against a culture of abuse requires renewing this certainty,” he said, and urged all Christians not to be afraid of being protagonists of change in the Church.

    Francis then thanked the organizations and media outlets that he said took on the issue, “always seeking the truth and not making this painful reality a meditative source for increasing the rating of their programming.”

    He also said the process of purification the Church is currently living is due not just to recent events, but the whole process is possible thanks to the effort and perseverance of those who, “against all hope and stains of discredit,” did not tire of seeking the truth.

    “I am referring to the victims of abuses of sexuality, power and authority and to those who in this moment believe and accompany them. Victims whose cry rose to heaven,” he said, voicing gratitude for the “courage and perseverance” they have shown.

    The “never more” attitude in front of a culture of abuse and the system of cover-up, he said, “demands working among everyone in order to generate a culture of care which permeates our ways of relating, praying, thinking, of living authority; our customs and languages and our relationship with power and money.”

    Pope Francis then stressed the urgency of generating spaces where a culture of abuse and concealment is not the “dominant scheme,” and in which a critical and questioning attitude is not confused with “betrayal.”

    He then urged all Christians, especially those who work in educational and formational entities and institutions, to pool their resources with civil society in order to find strategic ways of promoting a culture of care and protection.

    Abuse and cover-up, he said, are “incompatible with the logic of the Gospel since the salvation offered by Christ is always an offer, a gift which demands and requires freedom,” adding that all attempts against freedom and the integrity of the person “are anti-evangelical.”

    The pope then invited centers of religious formation, faculties of theology, and seminaries to launch a theological reflection capable of rising above the present time and promoting a “mature, adult” faith in the Church.

    Communities that are able to fight against abuse and which are internally capable of discussion and even confrontation on the issue are welcome, he said, adding that “we will be fruitful in the measure that we empower and open communities from within and thus free ourselves from closed and self-referential thoughts full of promises and mirages which promise life but which ultimately favor the culture of abuse.”

    Referring to the popular piety practiced in many communities in Chile, which he called an “invaluable treasure and authentic school of the heart for the people of God,” Francis said that in his experience, expressions of popular devotion are “one of the few places where the People of God are sovereign” from the influence of a clericalism which tries to control and limit the laity.

    Francis then pointed to all the laity, priests, bishops, and consecrated persons in Chile who have faithfully lived their vocations in love, saying they are Christians who know how to cry with others, to seek justice, and to look with mercy on those who are suffering.

    Pope Francis closed his letter saying a Church that is wounded is capable of understanding and being moved by the wounds of today’s world and of both making these wounds their own and accompanying and healing those who bear them.

    “A Church with sores does not put itself at the center, it does not believe itself to be perfect, it does not try to conceal and disguise its evil, but puts it before the only one who can heal wounds and who has a name: Jesus Christ.”

    This certainty is what will prompt people to look for the commitment to ultimately and in time generate a culture where every person “has the right to breathe an air free of every kind of abuse.”

    He urged the entire People of God not to be afraid to get involved and walk, driven by the Holy Spirit in search of a Church “which is increasingly more synodal, prophetic and hopeful,” and which is ultimately “less abusive because it knows to put Jesus at the center in the hungry, in the prisoner, in the migrant, in the abused.”

    Francis’ letter coincided with the start of the Pope’s second round of meetings with Chilean abuse survivors.

    The group, consisting of five priests and two laypersons who suffered either sexual abuse or abuse of power or conscience by Karadima, and two priests who have accompanied the victims, will be in Rome over the weekend to discuss the country’s abuse crisis with the pope.

    Francis’ letter comes after a months-long process of addressing the Chilean abuse crisis following an in-depth investigation carried out by Archbishop Charles Scicluna of Malta and Msgr. Jordi Bertomeu, from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.

    The investigation was initially centered around Bishop Juan Barros of Osorno, appointed to the diocese in 2015 and accused by at least one victim of covering up abuses of Fr. Fernando Karadima.

    In 2011, Karadima was convicted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of abusing minors and sentenced to a life of prayer and solitude. Allegations of cover-up were also made against three other bishops – Andrés Arteaga, Tomislav Koljatic and Horacio Valenzuela – whom Karadima’s victims accuse of knowing about Karadima’s crimes and failing to act.

    Pope Francis initially defended Barros, saying he had received no evidence of the bishop’s guilt, and called accusations against him “calumny” during a trip to Chile in January. However, after receiving Scicluna’s report, Francis apologized in an April 8 letter to the Chilean bishops, and asked to meet the prelates and more outspoken survivors in person.

    A few weeks, later, Francis held both private and group meetings with three of Karadima’s most outspoken victims – Juan Carlos Cruz, James Hamilton and Andres Murillo – at the Vatican April 27-29.

    Two weeks later, the pope met with all of Chile’s active bishops in Rome, some of whom have also been accused of cover-up, to discuss the conclusions of Scicluna’s report and to share his own reflections on the crisis.

    During the May 15-17 meeting, Francis criticized the 34 bishops present for systematic cover-up of clerical abuse in Chile, and urged them to refocus, putting Christ at the center of their mission.

    The gathering concluded with all of Chile’s active bishops offering a written resignation to Francis, which he will either accept or deny. So far, there has been no news of the pope’s decision.

    View attachment 8003
    Pope Francis says “never again” to a “culture of abuse”
    In a letter to the Catholics of Chile, made public on May 31 on the website of the Chilean Bishops’ Conference, Pope Francis affirmed his desire for a “new …
    I. Media for Aleteia May 31, 2018
     
  15. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    All sounds great, but how much of it is believable? Is it a real attempt to eradicate abuse or is it a case of using the abuse scandals to complete Luther's revolution?

    Is this a case of there will no longer be child abuse if we accept that adultery is no longer a sin, sodomy no longer a sin, fornication is equivalent to marriage, Hell might or might not exist depending on whether you're Catholic or an atheist, it's in the Gospel that God can't be God without us............he list gets longer each year?

    Luther was dead and buried. The church that he founded was dying out too. Now new life is being breathed into Luther and we are seeing Lutheranism being promoted in Christ's Church. Isn't there a mention in Revelation about a beast appearing to be dead but coming alive again for a second bite of the cherry?

    I suppose the best we can do is pray that Pope Francis is genuine or that God will send us a Pope who practices what Jesus preached.
     
  16. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

  17. Mary's child

    Mary's child Powers

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  19. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Dolours, Pope Francis met with "a second group of victims of the abuses of former Chilean priest Fernando Karadima and his followers from" June 1 through today. So I wonder if we will soon hear what action will be taken to help these victims heal from this situation and hopefully set a precedence to help prevent this from occurring in the future.

    Pope Francis Receives Other Victims of Abuse by the Chilean Clergy June 1, 2018
    http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?...-other-victims-of-abuse-by-the-chilean-clergy

    I pray that Pope Francis remembers that he made the statements contained in this article,

    Pope Francis supports zero tolerance of child abuse Mar 19, 2013
    by Thomas Reese https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/pope-francis-supports-zero-tolerance-child-abuse
    Pope Francis feature series. View the full series.

    Pope Francis is on record as supporting zero tolerance for the sexual abuse of minors by priests. In a 2012 interview, then-Cardinal Bergoglio said that a bishop called him for advice on how to deal with it, and "I told him to take away the priests' licenses, not to allow them to exercise the priesthood any more, and to begin a canonical trial in that diocese’s court."

    He went on to say that he was unconcerned about the impact on the image of the church. "I do not believe in taking positions that uphold a certain corporative spirit in order to avoid damaging the image of the institution." He was critical of the earlier practice in the United States of moving priests to a different parish. "It is a stupid idea; that way, the priest just takes the problem with him wherever he goes."

    He noted that Pope Benedict supported "Zero tolerance for that crime" and admired "the courage and uprightness of Pope Benedict on the subject." He says, "we must never turn a blind eye" to abuse. "You cannot be in a position of power and destroy the life of another person."

    In the interview, he argues that celibacy is not the cause of pedophilia. "More than seventy percent of cases of pedophilia occur in the family and neighborhood: grandparents, uncles, stepfathers, neighbors. The problem is not linked to celibacy. If a priest is a pedophile, he is so before he is a priest."
    Here are two more articles which also may be of interest,

    Should Pope Francis Accept the Chilean Bishops’ Resignations? June 1, 2018
    NEWS ANALYSIS: Analysts urge caution, while pressing for accountability for clergy sex abuse.
    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/should-pope-francis-accept-the-chilean-bishops-resignations

    Bishops, Abuse and the Next Steps May 19, 2018
    The Chilean Crisis points to greater accountability for bishops.
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mbunson/bishops-abuse-and-the-next-steps
     
  20. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    :cry:
    I just can’t help but think this is an attempt at damage control. Of course we know that Bella Dodd was responsible for a chunk that went in, but his 70% stat that the men were pedophiles already seems to ignore abuses that went on while in the seminary itself. It seems to be a “see it’s not my fault, they just snuck past screening” attitude. I’m sure some of them were already, but I think he’s completely overlooking a big chunk that were probably originally damaged while in the seminary by superiors. I don’t have actual stats on me about this (in case someone doesn’t agree with me) just my thoughts from reading and listening to talks on the subject :cry:
     
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