“The greater the darkness, the more complete our trust should be.” (St Faustina Kowalska, Diary, n 357) I am not sure years ago, even in the state of grace, would I have understood this statement. Now that it is upon me, I know it to be so. The slightest apostasy to the doctrines of the faith appalls me and I am digging in my heals against it. It is repugnant to my senses. I see clearly where it is coming from. I see it all, as our Lady of Fatima said it would be: Diabolical Disorientation. It just took a while after Francis became pope to get over the shock that it would consume a pope. It never dawned on me with all the prophecy, scripture and readings I had done for decades that it would begin with a pope. Never. I still pray for him daily, but I am very disheartened that it had to be so with a pope. This only gives more fuel for the protestants to point fingers at a church they had already believed was the whore of Babylon.
This is indeed a confusing time. I am actually disgusted by this agreement with the Communist government. To all appearances it is a bad deal. That being said the issue here being discussed isn't whether it is a good or bad deal, but whether a Pope has the authority to make it. I make no claim to being any kind of authority on this and this is just my personal opinion, but it seems to me that he does. If anyone thinks this is the first time that the Vatican has made a deal like this they would be mistaken. After the French Revolution Rome signed a Concordat with France allowing a great many concessions extremely limiting the Church. Things today we would shudder at. Napoleon even took upon himself the right to appoint the French bishops. My point is this. In matters of sin we have a right to resist any authority inside the Church or out that asks us to sin. If, for example, the Pope says we can use birth control then he is wrong. Period. We must obey the teachings of the Church which state that contraception is always and in every case an intrinsic evil. The Pope is mistaken in this case. Popes can err. That does not mean they lose authority or that they never had it. One thing Popes have authority to do is make agreements with the various civil nations they have to deal with. None of us here know the behind the scenes machinations of what is going on. The Chinese government could have issued Pope Francis a private ultimatum that unless he concedes they will go on a crusade to totally wipe out the Church in China and kill all Christians left in the country. I don't think something of that gravity happened, but my point is we just don't know what is happening behind the scenes at the diplomatic level. It is not our job as laity to let our personal opinions overrule every move of the Pope. We can talk about it. We can think it is a very bad idea, but in the end we have to accept that he has the authority to do certain things and I believe this is one of them. Let us be wary of what is coming out of the Vatican today. There is much bad fruit. We must also be wary though of adopting a schismatic attitude which says our personal discernment on all matters trumps a Pope's legitimate authority. It does not.
Praetorian, your position is very different to that held by Bishop Giuseppe Wei of the 'underground' Church in China. Can you explain why the Bishop is so badly mistaken and how you feel competent to make such a judgement at all. This is not a 'trick' question. I am genuinely puzzled how a testimony such as given by Bishop Wei can be put aside so easily.
Well spoken Fatima, this whole thing is disheartening. To read, to know, and to understand what was to come brings sad realization when the moment is upon us. . Praying for God's truth and justice to come into fulfillment quickly. May we all hold strong and fast to our heavenly mother's garment as the small remnant army of the holy rosary.
David, very often you dismiss others you disagree with here and elsewhere with no explanation given. What gives you that authority or competence? Are you always an expert on everything you comment on? Can I ask for your credentials and what gives you competence to post on anything here? It's called personal opinion. To quote my own post: "I make no claim to being any kind of authority on this and this is just my personal opinion..." When I am stating church teaching I say so and when I am expressing my personal opinion I also say so. This is a convoluted matter and I make no claim of authority or special competence in this matter. Almost none of us here are diplomats, theologians, or canon lawyers yet we post on these matters all day long. Ah the glory of the internet! This is a discussion forum and it is by definition a place for people to post personal opinions. We do not need to be experts. You have an opinion. I have an opinion. We can express it. We don't live in a country like say...China. There are Chinese bishops which hold my point of view and that viewpoint differs from Bishop Wei. Are they incompetent? Unqualified? You side with Bishop Giuseppe Wei. I side with Cardinal Joseph Zen. I could just as easily ask you why you are siding with a Bishop over a Cardinal who outranks him? Why you would pick at me over something as inconsequential as my competence to post my own personal opinion is beyond me. Especially when I was essentially agreeing with you regardless of my personal feelings! My goodness I can never figure you out. I would have thought you would have been happy to have someone on your side agreeing with you that the Pope has the authority to make these kinds of decisions. Peace
Thank you for responding, Praetorian. First of all, I realize you were giving your own opinion and I was merely asking why you chose, seemingly, to dismiss Bishop Wei's view. I was not attempting to push my own view which has no importance, I simply posted the views of Bishop Wei. It is because of the Bishop's views and of those like him, that the Vatican is following the policy that it is. But thank you for answering that you prefer Cardinal Zen's opinion. For me, rank is not relevant here. The problem with the Cardinal's views are that he does not live in mainland China. I'm sorry that I seem to have missed that you were agreeing with me! Your sentence at the start, "I am actually disgusted by this agreement with the Communist government." suggested otherwise! But I certainly wasn't attempting to 'pick' on you. I respond to some of your posts because what you have to say is more interesting than the average post.
Wise words, indeed. You have shown to us the necessary distinction between the political and the doctrinal. I wonder is this 'China Crisis' only a distraction from the more important issues of Christ-contradiction and the facilitation of man-boy love by prominent elements in the Church?
You have a special line in indirect insult, combining flattery and patronisation. Praetorian must be flattered to have heard he enjoys such favour. Still, I'm puzzled that one so privileged with discernment as yourself had to have Praetorian explain his post to you.
The words of Schönborn are horrifying, the fact that the bishop of Laun had to even say sorry after his solid rebuke. He is alone, no prelate has come out in his defense. The 'marriage for all' poses a challenge against which the Church has plenty of resources, starting with human reason and Divine Revelation... https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...t-bishops-critique-of-blessings-for-homosexua Cardinal Schönborn outraged at bishop’s critique of blessings for homosexual unions VIENNA, Austria, February 14, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – Austria’s bishops, led by Vienna’s Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, are indignant over a retired bishop’s passionate defense of Catholic teaching in opposing Church “blessings” for homosexual unions. After Bishop Andreas Laun, the retired Auxiliary Bishop of Salzburg, Austria, published Monday his strong rebuke of the German bishops for proposing to bless homosexual couples, there has been an intense reaction against him on the side of more progressive-leaning Austrian prelates. Cardinal Schönborn, President of the Austrian Bishops' Conference and papal spokesman on Amoris Laetitia, issued a statement Tuesday in Kathpress, the Austrian bishops' news agency that is supervised by Schönborn himself. “It certainly is not acceptable to mention the value of same-sex relationships at the same time as mentioning the mafia or concentration camps, as it now unfortunately has happened,” said Schönborn. “These things are not to be compared. To talk like this is unacceptable.” Additionally, Cardinal Schönborn declared helplessness in light of the “marriage for all.” “The 'marriage-for-all' poses for us as Church some challenges for which we do not have sure formulas,” he said. “We have to find careful answers to these questions which keep the dignity and the salvation of the souls of the concerned in view.” Archbishop Franz Lackner of Salzburg, Austria, the Vice President of the Austrian Bishops' Conference, also distanced himself from his former Auxiliary Bishop. “The statement of the retired Auxiliary Bishop Laun is saddening. The choice of words and the comparison are utterly inappropriate,” Lackner told Kathpress. “It is and remains incomprehensible how one could make in any way a connection between systematic crimes against humanity with same-sex forms of living.” The head of the Evangelical Church in Austria, Thomas Hennefeld, also expressed his indignation and said he is considering taking legal action against Bishop Laun for “inciting hatred.” Representatives from political parties and LGBT organizations demanded an apology from Bishop Laun. Bishop Laun himself immediately responded with an apology, which he published on the Austrian Catholic website Kath.net. He says that there are “once more” people who “think that I have somehow insulted them. I did not do it and never intended to do it.” If someone would now feel that way, Bishop Laun says, “I am sorry for it and in this sense I can also apologize for it.” Laun then sums up his line of argument, saying that he used “some drastic examples,” adding: The common denominator [of these examples] is only: that it is against God's Commandments, therefore the Church cannot bless it, neither smaller nor bigger sins. Laun explains that most people understood well what he meant “and also thank me for it.” He prefers also “not to reduce people to their own sexual orientation.” Each person, foremost of all, is “a son or a daughter of God.” The Austrian prelate insists: “I do not disrespect a person who has homosexual inclinations” and points to the fact that a childhood friend of his had been homosexual. To those “who do not simply act out of a hatred against the Church” but who truly feel wounded by his words, Bishop Laun repeats his apology. Then he concludes his text with the request: “When reading it [Laun's original commentary], enter into the recognizable sense of the thought and remember: I am happy to bless you, only God's Commandment sets a limit.” One Catholic journalist, speaking on condition of anonymity, comments: “The cardinal [Schönborn] sees fit to criticize Laun, but where is his criticism of Marx?” Observers of this controversy in Austria comment either with approval or disapproval. One person said that “Bishop Laun had no need to apologize” and points out that this is a “typical example of a witch hunt” with quotes taken out of context. Another observer commented: Homosexual acts are always mortal sins that cry to heaven. Who dies in such a mortal sin – that is to say, does not repent for that mortal sin – cannot enter Heaven but will be lost forever. Everyone who denies this teaching, even if he calls himself a bishop, cannot be in communion with Christ. This is and remains Catholic teaching! It is not known that either Cardinal Schönborn or Archbishop Lackner have rejected in principle the idea of blessing homosexual unions as it has been proposed or discussed by Cardinal Marx and Bishop Bode in Germany. However, it is known that Cardinal Schönborn's own cathedral St. Stephen offered a while ago, in 2016, an article in its bulletin that showed two men and an adopted child, presenting them as a married couple. A year earlier, during the 2015 Synod on the Family, the Austrian cardinal gave an interview in which he called for an acknowledgment of the “positive elements” of homosexual unions. He then said: “We can and we must respect the decision to form a union with a person of the same sex, [and] to seek means under civil law to protect their living together with laws to ensure such protection.”
Schonborn is manifestly a homosexualist. This is abominable. We might be better off under Sharia Law (no, I'm not suggesting we submit)! All these new paradigms are going to present some radical conundrums. In the interest of fairness, equality and, of course, mercy, it seems logical that the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah have their reputations restored, probably honoured as martyrs of that homophobic God the Father fellow. The Church can hardly have some unfortunates in Hell and luckier ones in Heaven for doing exactly the same thing. Needless to say, homophobes and haters such as Lot and St. Peter Damian will have to be demoted to the hot place. We can't have these striding around Heaven and spouting their awful bile about sodomy and Onanism, now can we? [The above second paragraph is meant to be ironic, lest anyone take me up wrongly].
Well, the thing with Schoenborn got me looking into this in Germany, and it doesn't take long to see how bleak this is...there's an article on LifeSite referencing a Father Modenbach who's been blessing homosexuals and googling him yielded this : https://osthessen-news.de/naerrisch...-karnevalisten-und-gemeinde-gottesdienst.html On the plus side it doesn't look like the laity is that into it.
Aye, but if you stay in the German Catholic Church, you must lend approval to it by filling the coffers of the sodomitical bishops and if you refuse to pay up, you will be excommunicated. The best result would be the mass flight of the laity (already starting, I would think) and the bankrupting of these heretics. These heretics and blasphemers are actively performing blessings of one of the select few sins deemed by the Church to cry out to Heaven for Vengeance (words not used lightly, by a Magisterium that tends to be very restrained), or at the very least failing to condemn such notions, nor are we hearing any objections from the Vatican. Failure to admonish such heresy and blasphemy is tacit approval. Sodomy is the prime weapon for the destruction of the Church, an act that even the devils, though tempting it constantly, are said to despise.
Yeah, the Church Tax...is that even valid, technically? It seems like a heresy (I was thinking Americanism, but that'd be the other way)...but the only way to get out of it is to declare that you're an atheist to the State, which is essentially denying Christ, so I guess you have to even if it's not valid for the Church to, essentially, collude with the Government. Poor German Catholics. I don't think the Holy Roman Empire did anything like this. Does any historian know?
Indeed, but it is coming to the point that declaring atheism to the state may be less wicked than declaring loyalty to what will no longer be a German Catholic Church. Could the Germans declare membership of the SSPX, for example? Goodness, even a declared membership of an Orthodox Church might look better in the eyes of God than membership of a satanic one. These problems might well be the future for us all. If the Catholic Church bows to the Chinese Communists, this might be a trial-run for signing-up to all other state ideologies. We might all face figurative guns being put to our heads to declare fealty to the State Church of Sodomy. Where do we go, then?
Tell me we can do sth more than prayer... lets follow the Pope’s advice and start to ‘make a mess’? Maybe we’ll stop giving money to our parishes and we’ll see how fast our bishops and priests start to denounce outload what they should be denouncing right now! Forgive me Lord if this sounds like a diabolical peronist-argentinian style suggestion, but I am outraged ! “BUTCHERS!!!!” (Our Lord to Padre Pio, speaking about prelates who are indifferent and have no faith, April 7, 1913) https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a...ouples-on-valentines-day-makes-reference-to-a Austrian diocese blesses gay couples on Valentine’s Day, makes reference to Amoris Laetitia
I am not certain if the following has been posted yet, I apologize if it has. I haven't finished watching the following video yet but I know that some of the comments made by Cardinal Cupich during this talk are being discussed on this thread and I thought you may be interested in watching it, Note: At the 47min. mark Professor John Rist presents several questions to Cardinal Cupich. ref. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/s...-asks-if-popes-paradigm-shift-means-radical-d https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-cupich-amoris-is-a-revolutionary-paradigm-shift And at the 19:50 min. mark the cardinal mentions a true natural marriage?
