The Great Monarch and the Holy Pope

Hi Frankly, the "Church" is the locus of the Antichrist, according to the CCC. Do you see any mention of any other kind of "temple" in that section of the CCC? The "Temple" used in Scripture is a figure of the Church. The Catechism recognizes this.

It is "the Church" that must pass through "a final trial." That "final trial" will be a "religious deception" that amounts to "apostasy from the truth." The Church"will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection" because the Antichrist will destroy the Church from within. The faithful remnant is only saved when Jesus returns in glory (not bodily).

 

So, you agree with him that whatever the Great Monarch and Era of Peace refers to, it cannot refer to an actual human world leader who brings about a literal period of world peace WITHIN HISTORY (i.e., prior to the Second Coming)? Because, otherwise, to believe such a thing would be millennialism or millenarianism? Please listen to the following video at timestamp 22:50 to hear his position:

 

Nope. Plus .. the CCC is Magisterium - which sits upon and is servant to Scriptures. Scriptures and Magisterium indicate nothing - even 'theologically' - about the Church being "the locus of the AntiChrist"

Its intention is to summarize and/or expound upon what's in Scriptures. It never adds to actual public revelation and It need not mention the temple where AntiChrist shall show his face.

Scriptures mean what it says and says what it means. Temple IS Temple and nothing in the CCC says differently.

The Man of Lawlessness AntiChrist 2 Thess 2

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

TEMPLE of AntiChrist?

The planned Third Temple in Jerusalem, Israel .. which by its nature*- is opposed to the real Messiah - fits the bill for the coming AntiChrist.

*Much More on that to follow..

+

 

I’m not sure of Desmond’s chronology. He is a fine scholar and has used approved prophecy, and church teachings to come up with his own analysis. But I still believe more in Fr Gobbi’s locutions. It makes more sense to me. I think some of us are just seeing the end of the world, instead of focusing on the current events. Our fight as Catholics today is against the false Christ and false Church caused by free masonry and communism controlled by the Antichrist. “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming” 2 Thes 2:8
“With the breath of his mouth” is the Holy Spirit. This tells me that Our Lord will come now in the end times by way of His spirit. Just like Maria Esperanza said He would. As He came the first time by way of Mary through the Holy Spirit, He will come again the same. I believe Fr Gobbi when he said, Satan will be chained at the end of this era, and those chains will be the Rosary. This coming will be about saving His Church. I do believe there is an Antichrist alive today getting ready to reveal himself, as I believe there will be one final Antichrist at the end of the world. That’s not millennialism. St John warned there would be many antichrists.

 

The true Church is indefectable, this is dogma, it is the false church that built around the false prophet that can defect all it wants without breaking a single promise of God.

 

Yes..

THE SPIRITUAL CHURCH - True and only Temple of God - can never be overtaken - Thus Speaks God.

Lately I'm wondering IF the fallen Vatican visible Catholic Church's present or future leadership/pope - IS coming to be The False Prophet of Revelations who'll support the coming AntiChrist who'll show up in a temple.

 

Frankly, Thank you for posting this, I was thinking of posting it also.

Now, looking at the 2 CCC entries that proceed those you have posted and looking at Saint Hildegard's and Ven. Holzhauser's description of the end times it makes sense to me that something big has to happen for the full inclusion of the Jews and the Gentiles to occur, something like the Warning & the Miracle or the Illumination of Conscience alone followed by a period of peace as promised by Our Lady of Fatima which from many approved prophecies appears to be the time of a Great Monarch and a Holy Pope.

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573

It think that this is only possible for the future but not the present because of the following scripture.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image. These two were cast alive into the pool of fire, burning with brimstone.

If the beast above represents the final Antichrist and if the false prophet is the present pope then we are at the end based on this scripture, correct? And I don't believe that is the case unless most of these approved Catholic prophecies are not going to come to fruition. Thoughts?

 

yes and satan created a horrible caricature of the Church precisely so that people being confused would abandon the true faith; in fact, Francis himself contributed to the strength of the enemies of the church in promoting the schism, for example with the heresy that Moscow is the third Rome; and through countless schismatic sects that deny the need to believe in the Immaculate Conception for salvation; some return to Luther's heretical concept of the invisible church; a church that functions without a fundamental structure of dogma while claiming to follow Christ as many Protestant sects do.

 

You could very well be right about something big having to happen to achieve the full inclusion. I never thought of it that way before but it makes sense.

 

Yes..

THE SPIRITUAL CHURCH - Temple of God - can never be overtaken - Thus Speaks God.

Lately I'm wondering IF the fallen Vatican visible Catholic Church's present or future leadership/pope - IS coming to be The False Prophet of Revelations who'll support the coming AntiChrist who'll show up in a temple. ?

Great post, Carol, which raises lots of Thoughts...

Re: The Conversion of Jews .. Currently there's a very wide gulf . . And in the Cath Ency we have this which mirrors the CCC which sits upon Scriptures

2. Conversion of the Jews|

According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob ".

===

An Illumination of Conscience would/should wake up everyone. And Acceding to it / Obeying / RePenting / Changing - would be - as is the case for any who know the Gospel - essential for Forgiveness / Salvation.

Perhaps connected is how today's members of Rabbinical Judaism - who are progeny of the Sanhedrin of olde, ane are yes awaiting a messiah -
but not Messiah Jesus of the New Covenant of God's Holy Spirit; rather, Old Covenant based upon Mosaic laws... Some expect him to arrive in the planned Third (Solomonic) Temple in Jerusalem.
These Jews do not believe the world shall end after Jesus' Return as followers of Jesus do.

POINT? Connected? IMO, when things of this world hits close to the point where IF Jesus does not intervene all living things would be destroyed?
1. This onetime pristine world which has been going downhill ever since the Fall - will NOT be anything that a rational mind would care to own and live in.
2. Jesus's Christian End Times Eschatology - . shall shine out as being the true prophecy..
3. And thus? Sometime before that point which may connect w/the Illumination - IMO - some/many/all? non-Christian Jews shall accept Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah!

Carol/You Said: If the beast above represents the final Antichrist and if the false prophet is the present pope then we are at the end based on this scripture, correct?
And I don't believe that is the case unless most of these approved Catholic prophecies are not going to come to fruition. Thoughts?

We have Satan, AntiChrist and False prophet - all with power to perform miracles (REV 16: 13,14)
The False Prophet would have to arrive after the AntiChrist (who's been claimed to arrive in the planned Third Temple in Jerusalem - posing as God / "messiah").

IMOpinion - this current pope is not the false prophet.

Jesus' words on the AntiChrist - shall be a huge wakeup for all those who Worship God

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

To be continued..

 

we already have the model of the Church of the antichrist with the project of decentralization of the Church; the German synod and the state church subservient to the Chinese government; but nevertheless in Fatima we have the promise of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and an era of peace and reunification of the Churches in which the Church will rise stronger even in the proclamation of the fundamental dogmas of the faith such as the Immaculate Conception and the papal primacy under a holy pope. . As for the future conversion of the Jewish people Christ seems to point out that they will accept the false messiah at some point considering that they absolutely reject adherence to all Church dogmas they are more likely to accept any deceiver who claims to be the true messiah.

 

Frankly, listen to St. Robert Bellarmine's discussion of the controversy at timestamp 6:08 of this video:



So according to St. Robert Bellarmine, there are two opinions by two Doctors of the Church, one held by St. Jerome and one held by St. Robert Bellarmine himself:

1. Jerome's Opinion: the seat of the Antichrist is Rome, the Church.
2. St. Robert's Opinion: the seat of the Antichrist is "Jerusalem"

The above establishes that in St. Robert Bellarmine's time, the controversy was an open theological question.

Now, moving to 2 Thessalonians 2, St. Paul uses the word "temple" as a figure for the Church. To prove this, look at Jesus's words in Matthew 24 where he refers to the Abomination of Desolation in the holy place. The Abomination of Desolation is an event in the end times, right? The Abomination of Desolation is set up, by the Antichrist, "in the holy place." Do you think that Jesus is saying that "the holy place" is some Third Temple of the future "Jews." The Jews rejected Jesus. Their Temple is not "the holy place" after His Death on the Cross. And in the Secret of LaSalette, Our Lady said that "Rome would lose the faith and become the Seat of the Antichrist."

Finally, the CCC 675, 676, 677, when discussing the Antichrist doesn't mention the words "Jerusalem" or "temple" does it? But is says quite a bit about "the Church" doesn't it? After warning about the "ultimate trial" and the pseudo-messiah "Antichrist" and the "religious deception in section 675, the Catechism goes on to explain exactly what this "trial" and "pseudo-messianism" will look like.

In 676, the Catechism says the "religious deception" will be a form of "millenialism" or "millenarianism" that claims to usher in "that messianic hope which can only by realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment." The Catechism is clear that this view is false, a deception.

Translation: just as the Jews were disappointed that Jesus was not setting up some kind of worldly kingdom 2000 years ago, the followers of the Antichrist want to help this pseudo-messiah set up a worldly New World Order, which will bring about a period of peace and harmony on earth, within history, through human action.

In section 677, the Catechism says that "the Church" will not enter "the glory of the kingdom" through some kind of New World Order/New Order of the Ages (Novus Ordo Seclorum). Rather, "the Church" will follow the Lord in his death and Resurrection." We WILL NOT experience an "historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendency."

Translation: there will be no "triumph" of the Church WITHIN HISTORY, within the world of time and space as we know it. Our triumph will not come by the Church making "progress" with evangelization. It will only come after Christ intervenes, supernaturally, with his Parousia, his "coming in glory," his "visitation."

So, the Antichrist will be an antipope, an occupier of the Roman See, the new "temple" of the new "Jerusalem" (aka the Roman Catholic Church). But his "deception" will be to set up a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholic faith that "even the Elect" would believe is the true Church. That counterfeit church will promote "human development" and "tolerance of sin" and "worldly peace." This "deception" will happen BEFORE, the actual Period of Peace, because the authentic Period of Peace is the "Triumph." That Triumph is when the Ever-Virgin crushes the head of Satan and his Antichrist. It is a "period of peace" because the Church is not a war with Satan during this period.

 

This is one of the hopes I have for Garabandal. Garabandal is in a part of Spain where many Jewish converts to Catholicism moved during the times of the Inquisition in Spain. The Inquisition was instituted BY THE GOVERNMENT to "seek out" those Jews who said they had converted, yet still practiced the traditions of Judaism. If they went back on their promises they agreed to in Baptism, how could they be trusted to be faithful to the Spanish Monarchy? The Inquisition of the Church was designed to bring back those who had fallen away; the Inquisition of the government is the one that developed the reputation for cruelty (and even the truth of that is much, much milder than the Protestants of England, Sweden, etc. would have the world believe.)

I believe the prophecies of Garabandal (in terms of a Sign that can be seen and photographed, but not touched) match very closely the descriptions of the Shekinah Glory of God that filled the First Temple when God came to rest there, after its construction. Such glory would take place at Garabandal as the place so many "hidden Jews" (who now practice Catholic Christianity) came to settle. That, and the other signs that will take place there, will be what the Jewish sages would be looking for, and would lead many of them and their followers in Judaism to embrace Catholicism.

(Additionally, don't forget the Muslims. "Fatima" in Portugal is a favorite destination for Muslims, as it has the same name as Mohammed's youngest and favorite daughter. At the same time as the Jews converting because of the Signs and Wonders at Garabandal, so shall most Muslims convert because of the Signs and Wonders taking place at Fatima, Portugal.)

 

Carol55, I think we agree on the bolded part of your quote above. The Warning/Miracle happens BEFORE or SIMULTANEOUS WITH the Period of Peace. The Warning/Miracle descriptions are of a mystical or spiritual return of Jesus. He becomes "present" in our souls. He "visits" us. This description is the Parousia, the Greek word that is translated as Adventus (Latin) and the Second Coming (English). Have you considered the Great Monarch is "Christ the King" and his "Holy Pope" is Peter?

And don't be confused, the "Second Coming" is not the same thing as the Last Judgment. Desmond Birch makes this clear in the video I posted earlier.

 

Not necessarily, no. 1 Maccabees 1:54 describes how according to the order of Antiochus Epiphanes, a pig was sacrificed on the Altar of Sacrifice in the Temple in Jerusalem, and many pagan altars were build throughout Judea. The phrase used by the author of Maccabees is "desolating abomination" or "Abomination of Desolation". This event would have occurred in the memory of some of His listeners, or had been described to his listeners by their parents. So whatever is to happen will have the same spiritual significance of what Antiochus Epiphanes had ordered to be done.

 

I think the temple means the Church. Just like the old temple in Jerusalem was abominated, so will the new temple of the Church be abomiated. The holy place cannot be a place where Jews sacrifice animals. The holy place has to be where the mass is offered.

The false prophet will take away the daily sacrifice ( mass) because he claims to be pope, whereas in his words and actions he is like the dragon. No legit pope would be capable of doing that. That is, in my opinion, the only way to square the idea that the Church is indefectible with the fact that there will be a great apostasy in the end times. Both are true, yet they seem opposed. People will obey him, because almost everyone believes he is the pope and hence the Church is invincible under his reign.

 

Hi Muzhik, Jesus references the Book of Daniel in Matthew 24:

15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.​

Here are the two references to the Abomination of Desolation the Book of Daniel. First from Daniel, Chapter 11:

30 And the galleys and the Romans shall come upon him, and he shall be struck, and shall return, and shall have indignation against the covenant of the sanctuary, and he shall succeed: and he shall return, and shall devise against them that have forsaken the covenant of the sanctuary. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice: and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.​

Second from Daniel, Chapter 12:

11 And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh unto a thousand three hundred thirty-five days.​

Note that in both cases, the Abomination of Desolation is connected to "the continual sacrifice" (aka the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to St. Robert Bellarmine). Jesus is clearly referring to an event happening in the "holy place" where the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" takes place. That is in "the Church," not in some future Jewish Third Temple.

 

Hi BrianK. I'm not even sure what we don't agree on, since you didn't provide any specific quotes. Can you do that so that I can understand you better? Also, since I don't have Desmond Birch's book (and I assume you do) can you provide me with quotes from that book that you think would be relevant to our discussion? Many thanks.