Sign after sign after sign...

I did not state he had any authority to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. I merely stated that God could perform that miracle during his celebration and why wouldn't He?

 

The point about tangents is simply to not allow ourselves to stray from the main point of contention. As I stated above all who are baptised are baptised into the Catholic Church founded on Peter, established by the Lord Himself. The Catholic Church today and it alone has been given full authority to bind and loose in the name of Christ and all those other Churches that enjoy the privileges of apostolic succession and valid orders.
All the rest are either cults or in the new terminology mere ecclesial communities. We cannot even use the word Church to refer to them for they are not Churches.

Ask yourself why a devout layman cannot say Mass, forgive sins etc. Explore this and you will come to see why your Lutheran friend can never consecrate the bread and wine so that they become the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord.

 

Perhaps it may have to do with the fact that he established a Church with priests etc to do this very thing. Otherwise he could have ordained that even the dogs in the street could do likewise.

 

What's more to the point is why would He? Just because you friend wanted it to be? Not sufficient reason to advise a Catholic to commit the sin of giving validity to heresy by accepting Communion from an unauthorised priest on the offchance that God will work a miracle because both he and she will God to do what they want.

 

God can, and does, give spiritual communions to those who cannot receive, and to those, as much as they may believe in the Sacramental Eucharist, are unable to have it for lack of an ordained priest to consecrate. Certainly God can do anything, but according to the Saints, He really LOVES obedience!

 

A final contribution from me on this topic of the celebration of the Mass by a non-Catholic priest. First of all, I do believe that Pope Francis probably holds the same view about this as I do but that is, of course, just my opinion. The heart of the question is whether God would (I think it has to be agreed He could) perform the miracle of transubstantiation during a Mass celebrated by a Protestant minister. The reason I believe He would (and does!) is because I believe He recognizes the authority of Protestant priests in a similar way that He recognizes the authority of Orthodox clergy, albeit the latter having apostolic succession. I simply do not believe that God's hands are 'tied' because of 'legal ' discontinuities in the priestly succession of protestant ministers.

I'm sorry if what I am trying to explain in these posts of mine, today, upsets some on the forum. That is certainly not my intention. I have really just been trying to provide a few 'hints' to those who are puzzled by some of Pope Francis' actions.

 

Even a dog could perform the miracle if God so willed it. This point is superfluous because we know that He has not in fact willed it so because of the fact that He established a Church and a priesthood to offer the sacrifice. Perhaps your confusion comes from the fact that you do not know what in fact the mass is.

 

Well if these are your "hints", I shudder to think what is your full interpretation of the Pope's actions. Apparently, it isn't only the secular press who use his words and actions to suit their own wish list.

Isn't there also an issue that, apart from losing Apostolic succession when Henry V111 and most of their bishops set up their own church subject to the Crown, they subsequently made some change in the Sacrament of Holy Orders which would have rendered it invalid even if they had remained in Communion with Rome?

According to a survey carried out some years ago, a third of their priests don't believe in the Resurrection and about half don't believe in the Virgin Birth. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...lergy-do-not-believe-in-the-Resurrection.html At that stage about a quarter were implacably opposed to Women Bishops. Now they are at loggerheads with their fellow Anglicans in Africa over the LGBT issues. That's the result of "untying" God's hands because of "legal" discontinuities whatever that means.

Does the Holy Father believe that Protestants can be saved? Of course he does because he is a self-proclaimed faithful son of the Church as he stated when knocking back the reporters who wanted him to open the Priesthood to women. Does he teach that the Catholic Church has been tying Gods hand for 2000 years, or even the past 500 years? No, because he is a faithful son of the Church.

 

I can't believe you wrote this David.

This is not the teaching of the Church. It is heresy. It also seems to be make it up as you go along time.....like some weird pseudotheological Harry Potter.

I am thinking, why could God not have replaced the Pope with super clever alien from from Alpha Centauri and be planning to to, etc etc etc.?

You really, really reached with this one. Full points for imaginative content though.

Whatever next?

 

There can be no transubstantiation in protestant churches!

ALL protestants belong to a man made church!

Lutheran, Calvin, Paisley - man made churches following personal interpretation of the Bible hence the tens of thousands of myriad protestant sects with all manner of beliefs.

That is not to deny that they are Christian.

But they broke from Rome from the Papacy, the symbol and authority of the Church, therefore, they broke from Apostolic succession, therefore, they have invalid priestly orders. They do not have a valid Mass.

There is only one valid, sacramental, priestly, apostolic and holy Catholic Church. That is The Church Christ spoke of.

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Every time we participate in the sacrifice of the Mass and receive the Eucharist, the power of Christ's sacrifice is made present and actualized. There is but one perpetual sacrifice of Jesus. Each time we obey his command to "Do this in memory of me," Jesus comes whole and entire--Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity--and he brings us into communion with the divine through his priests in persona Christi. At Mass we participate in the heavenly liturgy. Mass is a gift from above.

Protestant services cannot participate in this cosmic Divine Liturgy because of the rupture of the reformation. To deny this is to deny History and apostolic succession.

 

One of the ways would be for the priest to explain beforehand what the Eucharist is and why one needs to be in a state of grace when receiving. Some priests do but they are very rare. If people still unworthily come for communion whilst understanding then the wrong would obviously be upon their own heads.

 

According to Father Z, via Ed Pentin, the giving of the Eucharist to the Lutherans was due to stupidity, not new policy. The cock-up theory of history wins again.

 

...I always chuckled in my hometown in NJ. Its a very Historic town for the revolution. Lots of protestant Churchs, but what made me always chuckle was the markey sign, 2nd Baptist or 3rd Baptist Church...I never saw the first Baptist Church signs???

After debating a few Baptists, they claim St John the Baptist is the first Church but they deny Baptism saves ones soul....they are sola scriptora, Bible alone. But, St Peter tells us,
1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

A happy ending all round.

 

Its a purely spiritual debate. As a knowing Catholic we all agree Catholic Priests are the only ones able to perform the rite of Holy Communion...but there can be spiritual interventions that is driven by heart and faith. Most people on this forum only understand the law. Just like the Pharisees. But God is much greater then the Law and the Catholic Church. We can't fathom the true being of God or His rules. All David said was it was possible... and that is spiritually correct. He never said all protestants and/or modern protestants. He just said there might have been a specific time or a specific event (even once) that God could allow the rite to be performed by someone other then a priest.

It is theologically sound.

 

That God would hop skip and jump the Church and priesthood He Himself founded and do a zap job?

Give me a break

 

This will be controversial, but,...years ago listening to a priests talk on the reformation Fr made comment on communion services in some protestant sects. He noted, if a pastor under a bishop , and the bishop had succession to a Catholic Bishop, the pastor could consecrate...tho illict, like SSPX ,its still Christs body and Blood.

Some might not even know they are anointed ???

This really rocked me when Fr spoke... I admit its a strange but true thought

 

That painted a funny picture in my head. I once watched a skinny lady in her 80s amazingly doing the hop, skip and jump. I thought her old legs were going to snap on landing. Thankfully they did not. God is a lot older than 80 so if he were to hop, skip and jump over the Vatican who knows what would break. As Padraig says "Give me a break" but not that one.

 

Anyway, accepting Fr Z's contention that the Eucharist was given to the Lutherans by mistake I would say the whole thing closes on a happy note.

It was just an accident.

One point does concern me though. Some people where willing to go to extraordinary lengths (including zap jobs) to defend the indefensible. It leaves me wondering if there is a line anywhere that cannot be crossed , anywhere at all, zap jobs and all, if they feel there is an outside chance Pope Francis might possibly have given the nod.
Zapa Papa.

Zap, Zap, Zap. Pap, Pap, Pap.

 

It reminded me of the TV programme , 'Bewitched' , Joe.

Do you remember ? I used to love it, especially the mother in law.