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Sign after sign after sign...

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Torrentum, Jul 30, 2014.

Page 122 of 174

Marie-Lou Guest

padraig said: ↑

cf Canon Law 915:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_915

'Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.[1]'

The corresponding canon in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, which binds members of the Eastern Catholic Churches, reads:
The publicly unworthy are to be kept from the reception of the Divine Eucharist[2][3]

This Practise of refusing the Eucharist to the unworthy has been carried on since the Earliest times in the Church, as the Church Fathers testify:
'Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to "those who hold heterodox opinions," that "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (6:2, 7:1).

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1–20).

Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. "I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence" (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).

Cyril of Jerusalem, in a catechetical lecture presented in the mid-300s, said, "Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy
of the body and blood of Christ" (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9).

In a fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: "When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).'

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist
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Yes Padraig, I do appreciate what you are saying. There are times when I do not receive Holy Communion as I do not feel worthy. I was answering mainly in reply to Kathy B's comment about when the fullness of the storm hits. If for eg a protestant who was good living and followed Christ throughout his life during the storm wished to receive the Eucharist from a catholic priest, would it be right to refuse him communion on the grounds that he was not confirmed into the catholic faith at that point. I believe that he would be as deserving of all Gods graces as a Catholic would be. Considering one of the posts on this forum is why do protestants hate catholics so much, we may never face that dilemma!!

Marie-Lou, Jan 28, 2016

#2421

josephite likes this.
padraig Powers

CrewDog said: ↑

It is "nice" that we, now, can still discuss the finer points of Canon Law and This-n-That but I fear that when we are in that "Foxhole/Lifeboat" and down to our last can of Pork-n-Beans or 20 rounds of ammo .... Somehow ... I'm thinking that the finer points of Canon Law or anything else will be the last thing on our minds. Just Pray ... & "Hard" ... that my grim view of events to come ... Don't! .... but current events and 6,000 years of recorded human history argue otherwise

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!! ......... and Be With Us in The Storm!!
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Well Denis , I am not quite sure that Canon Law to ensure that the Body of Christ is not consumed unworthily is a, 'finer point'. I would say it is a pretty important one.

As an ex Marine yourself I am sure a great deal of time was spent inculcating in you the need for miltary discipline especially in times of war. In fact I suspect discipline is nowhere more needed than when the bullets are flying.

padraig, Jan 28, 2016

#2422

Mac and CrewDog like this.
Joe Crozier Guest

padraig said: ↑

The true poison of vipers is a lack of Charity , Joe. Your post fairly hisses with it. It's a wonder your keyboard didn't explode when you were typing that.
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Ah well that's me condemned and dismissed. I saw that left hook coming. If you were one of the brood that would be a first, a boxing snake. You are getting slow. We used to refer to Protestants as left footers. Oh by the way - were you not aware of the common rather than the dictionary meaning of Proselytism? You know the meaning with the bad rep? You know the one Pope Francis meant? oops there goes another couple of exploding letters on my keyboard. I actually feel quite calm. I think my preparation for consecration is making a difference. Old hothead is decidedly cooler.

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2016

Joe Crozier, Jan 28, 2016

#2423
padraig Powers

Marie-Lou said: ↑

Yes Padraig, I do appreciate what you are saying. There are times when I do not receive Holy Communion as I do not feel worthy. I was answering mainly in reply to Kathy B's comment about when the fullness of the storm hits. If for eg a protestant who was good living and followed Christ throughout his life during the storm wished to receive the Eucharist from a catholic priest, would it be right to refuse him communion on the grounds that he was not confirmed into the catholic faith at that point. I believe that he would be as deserving of all Gods graces as a Catholic would be. Considering one of the posts on this forum is why do protestants hate catholics so much, we may never face that dilemma!!
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Well Mary Lou, I guess in that situation it would be fine to got the Lord about it.

This particular situation reminds me the incident in Christ's Life when:

Matthew 12:1

The Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."…

padraig, Jan 28, 2016

#2424

Marie-Lou likes this.
padraig Powers

Sigh . I can't sleep a wink tonight, I think I will try to go back to bed again.

Some people count sheep I like to go to San Giovanni Rotundo and imagine I am praying behind Padre Pio up in the choir loft of the Chapel of Our Lady of Graces.

padraig, Jan 28, 2016

#2425

little me, fallen saint and Marie-Lou like this.
Dolours Guest

Joe Crozier said: ↑

Proselytism is often seen as talking at someone rather than talking to or with someone. I find it very hard to believe that those who have once again jumped down the throat of Pope Francis do not know this. We are not Jehova's witnesses nor do we employ their modus operandi. There are many ways to attract prospects for the Faith. Pope Francis was 100% correct. Talking at them is not one of them. Neither is simply spouting endless scripture or dogma. More is needed. The Catholic message cannot be carried if it is not lived. I have never met anyone who has been convinced and converted except by aspiring to a quality of The Catholic Faith in the lives of others that has attracted them. It is how conversion is offered to others that is important. Sure, the right words are important but timing is vital and example is essential. We reciprocate their wish to know us better with our interest in them and our concern for them. We get to know them. We listen, not with any desire to convert to their faith but with the intention of meeting their needs and what they need to enjoy our faith. As Pope Francis says, they have to see in us something they want. In Jesus people saw the Truth as much as heard the Truth. As our Pope said they have to be attracted to the faith. Sometimes I feel this forum should have a suffix to its title (+BOV). The poison in our vipers continues to be in endless supply. I have watched the brood spit and strike and scurry away. The vipers whom Jesus addressed may have been learnèd but were not wise. I have no wish or need to condemn those who misrepresent and attack Our Holy Father here. They have condemned themselves out of their own mouths. I have seen and felt the sickness here for a long time. Why do I stay? I feel a duty to do what I can to try to heal the wounds inflicted on Our Holy Father in which he is one with the wounds of Christ on the Cross. I am after all a health care provider by profession. Sometimes I watch the TV evangelicals and I think "Yep, wonderful thoughts and words but do you have the Bread of Life to feed your sheep? Do you have the authority of Jesus bestowed on Peter to interpret his word? Do you have the words of Eternal life spoken by Jesus as understood by the One True Apostolic Church?" If the answer is no then they have missed the boat. In this year of Mercy I want to catch at least one fish for Jesus. I must pray how best to be attractive for that fish to enter the net. And of course it will be catch, tag and release. Tagged with the mark of Faith and released into the See of Peter that leads to new and eternal life. I think vipers can swim so there may even be hope for them if they repent.
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Well, Joe, I'm glad you are still here. I'm not sure, but I think it was you who called me a troll on my first day, which left me with a sour taste in the mouth. Now that I'm more familiar with your style, I really appreciate your perspective. You might be surprised how much good you do.

Dolours, Jan 28, 2016

#2426

josephite likes this.
Joe Crozier Guest

Dolours said: ↑

Well, Joe, I'm glad you are still here. I'm not sure, but I think it was you who called me a troll on my first day, which left me with a sour taste in the mouth. Now that I'm more familiar with your style, I really appreciate your perspective. You might be surprised how much good you do.
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I must have been showing off some new found knowledge when I called you a troll. Can't remember doing it but sorry if I was wrong. I had never heard of trolls until fairly recently. Glad I have done some good. It's about time I did I will get you an ice cream if ever we meet to get rid of the sour taste.

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2016

Joe Crozier, Jan 28, 2016

#2427

josephite likes this.
Marie-Lou Guest

padraig said: ↑

Sigh . I can't sleep a wink tonight, I think I will try to go back to bed again.

Some people count sheep I like to go to San Giovanni Rotundo and imagine I am praying behind Padre Pio up in the choir loft of the Chapel of Our Lady of Graces.

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Same here Padraig. I bet come seven am we won't be feeling so awake lol

Marie-Lou, Jan 28, 2016

#2428
Joe Crozier Guest

padraig said: ↑

Sigh . I can't sleep a wink tonight, I think I will try to go back to bed again.

Some people count sheep I like to go to San Giovanni Rotundo and imagine I am praying behind Padre Pio up in the choir loft of the Chapel of Our Lady of Graces.

Click to expand...

I am getting old and forgetful so please forgive me if I am repeating my stories. My Granny Kellegher's Italian friend Mrs DeGiacommo went to confession to Padre Pio. She did not know what to say so he told her all her sins. Granny never told me how she reacted. Mixture of shock and relief I imagine. Nothing like being totally sussed and still sure you are loved!

Joe Crozier, Jan 28, 2016

#2429

josephite, DeGaulle and kathy k like this.
kathy k Guest

Dolours said: ↑

And if the priest who shows up is Protestant, will your hunger and thirst be satisfied by the Eucharist he or she offers you?
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No - it would not be the body and blood of my Lord.

kathy k, Jan 28, 2016

#2430

DeGaulle, Mac and little me like this.
CrewDog Guest

padraig said: ↑

Well Denis , I am not quite sure that Canon Law to ensure that the Body of Christ is not consumed unworthily is a, 'finer point'. I would say it is a pretty important one.

As an ex Marine yourself I am sure a great deal of time was spent inculcating in you the need for miltary discipline especially in times of war. In fact I suspect discipline is nowhere more needed than when the bullets are flying.
Click to expand...

I'll not argue your finer points ... except I'm U.S. Air Force (Ret)
.... from a long line of Navy Swabbies & JarHeads!

GOD SAVE MY COMRADES IN ARMS & ALL HERE!!!

PS: I truly believe that The Lord will "Feed" ALL of His Lambs in whatever manner will bring them into His Eternal Kingdom!

CrewDog, Jan 28, 2016

#2431

josephite and DeGaulle like this.
miker Powers

Saw this in news paper tonight. It's a cloud formation in Portrugal. Locals calling it the "hand of God". Pretty cool

View attachment 4193

miker, Jan 28, 2016

#2432

little me, Patty, Amazing Grace and 1 other person like this.
Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

miker said: ↑

I can only hope it will and that the One True Jesus Christ in an infinite act of Mercy and charity will make himself fully and completely present, body, soul, and divinity. It truly is what I would expect from a God who already sacrificed for me.
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What you want from God Miker, is why Ecumenism can be dangerous. You meet in the middle and come up with false hope.
Its like expecting God to abolish hell. Because you want or expect it.

Mac, Jan 28, 2016

#2433
Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

Marie-Lou said: ↑

I would not like to be the one facing Our Lord on judgement day saying I refused anyone the Eucharist who wished to receive it because I thought they were not worthy. I would not want that on my conscience! It is maybe just as well that I only have to worry about my own worthiness to receive.
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
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Not much chance of me refusing anyone the Eucharist Marie Lou. I am not a priest.

Mac, Jan 28, 2016

#2434

Marie-Lou likes this.
Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

Not much point in arguing about what might happen in the' fullness of the storm.'
We might not have tomorrow. Fight today what is before us.

Mac, Jan 28, 2016

#2435

little me, Amazing Grace and miker like this.
fallen saint Baby steps :)

Ecumenicism leads to abolishing hell...pure nonsense. Some of you guys just want drama with no real spiritual reason.

fallen saint, Jan 28, 2016

#2436

DeGaulle likes this.
padraig Powers

Joe Crozier said: ↑

Ah well that's me condemned and dismissed. I saw that left hook coming. If you were one of the brood that would be a first, a boxing snake. You are getting slow. We used to refer to Protestants as left footers. Oh by the way - were you not aware of the common rather than the dictionary meaning of Proselytism? You know the meaning with the bad rep? You know the one Pope Francis meant? oops there goes another couple of exploding letters on my keyboard. I actually feel quite calm. I think my preparation for consecration is making a difference. Old hothead is decidedly cooler.
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I have the most shocking temper myself, Joe. It pops only about twice a year but when it does the world runs for cover. All my family is the same. A kind of crazy rage.

My father used to think maybe it was a good thing at times but St James tells us:

James 1:20

Hearing and Doing
19This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. 21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.…

When I think of rage I always think of the Outlaw Josey Wales who always made me laugh.

padraig, Jan 28, 2016

#2437

Jeanne likes this.
DeGaulle Powers

CrewDog said: ↑

I'll not argue your finer points ... except I'm U.S. Air Force (Ret)
.... from a long line of Navy Swabbies & JarHeads!

GOD SAVE MY COMRADES IN ARMS & ALL HERE!!!

PS: I truly believe that The Lord will "Feed" ALL of His Lambs in whatever manner will bring them into His Eternal Kingdom!
Click to expand...

On your last point, I would add the caveat that the Kingdom will be offered them, but refusal will be an option.

DeGaulle, Jan 28, 2016

#2438
DeGaulle Powers

fallen saint said: ↑

Ecumenicism leads to abolishing hell...pure nonsense. Some of you guys just want drama with no real spiritual reason.

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No Hell makes the whole shooting match unnecessary. Nothing but pointless suffering. Implying God would be a sadist.

DeGaulle, Jan 28, 2016

#2439

fallen saint likes this.
Joe Crozier Guest

I

miker said: ↑

Saw this in news paper tonight. It's a cloud formation in Portrugal. Locals calling it the "hand of God". Pretty cool

View attachment 4193
Click to expand...

It looks more like the claw of Beelzebub to me

Joe Crozier, Jan 28, 2016

#2440

CrewDog likes this.

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