Sign after sign after sign...

My conversion (re-version) was in 1988. I heard grave error every time I went to Mass.

In my area of responsibility, I will always defend the faith and the teachings of our Church.

This is a time of great deception - a time for patience, peace and complete trust in the Lord. He will sort all of this out (as he sorts us!)

 

Sr Lucy to Fr Fuentes ..1957 “The first is because she told me that the Devil is engaging in a battle with the Virgin, a decisive battle. It is a final battle where one party will be victorious and the other will suffer defeat. So, from now on, we are either with God or we are with the Devil; there is no middle ground''.

Sr Lucy to Cardinal Carlo Caffara
'' Final Confrontation between the Lord and Satan will be over Family and Marriage."


the final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid, she added, because anyone who works for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be fought and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue. And then she concluded: however, Our Lady has already crushed its head.


There is no middle ground.

 

St Francis entered the Muslim territory to Evangelise, Kathy , not to join with the Sultan in commemorating the False Prophet Muhammed. Pope Francis is not entering Lutheran territory to Evengelise but to commemorate. In fact the Holy Father has recntly said in an interview that ;

“Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense.”

also that:

“I believe I have already said that our goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope.”

'The Church does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by “attraction“—just as Christ “draws all to himself” by the power of his love, culminating in the sacrifice of the Cross, so the Church fulfills her mission to the extent that, in union with Christ, she accomplishes every one of her works in spiritual and practical imitation of the love of her Lord.'

Pope Francis


This being so it appears that St Francis is put in something of a back foot in entering Muslim territory to convert. He would have been right (according to the Holy Father) to go to 'listen to the Sultans needs, desires. disappointments despairs and hopes', and to let his light shine so it attracted people. But it appears St Francis went way over the top in crossing the line in actively trying to convert. Big mistake. According to Pope Francis St Francis shoudl simply have let his light shine and drawn in the Sultan by some kind of spiritual osmosis.



Not only St Francis but generations of Catholic Saints such as St Francis Xavier many of whom actually appear now to have laid down their lives in what appears to be a huge error of judgement. .

Also of course the great saints who brought the Faith to the USA. Such as Saint Junípero Serra.

I am sorry but if people like St Francis, St Francis Xavier and St Junipero were not actively trying to convert people I can't imagine what they were doing.

 

Garabandal - Our Lady's Message of June 18, 1965

Since my message of October 18, 1961 has not been complied with and has not been made much known to the world, I will tell you that this is the last one. Before the chalice was filling now it is overflowing. Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them. To the Eucharist, there is given less and less importance. We should avoid the wrath of God on us by our good efforts. If you ask pardon with your sincere soul God will pardon you. It is I, your mother, who through the intercession of St. Michael, wish to say that you amend, that you are already in the last warnings and that I love you much and do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and we will give to you. You should sacrifice more. Think of the passion of Jesus.

“The results of the Council seem cruelly to have contradicted the expectations everybody had, beginning with John XXIII and Paul VI ... [W]e have been confronted instead with a continuing process of decay that has gone on largely on the basis of appeals to the Council, and thus has discredited the Council in the eyes of many people.”

 

These also gave their lives converting. Even converting Jews. Which there is no need for now. [thanks G] View attachment 4185

 

I think they converted others by acts of charity and by showing good works of love and kindness ......while remaing true to everything they taught.
I think many missionaries set out to BRING the GOOD NEWS......not impose the GOOD NEWS.
They would come into areas that were hostile and begin by seeing to the needs of the people and the poor and sick......all the while having masses out in the open .....where the natives could see and hear and smell. I think it created a curiosity. Good works and love were apparent to many and it created a WANTING of that too. LOVE is contagious. LIGHT not hidden under a bushel SPREADS AND CASTS OUT THE DARKNESS.
The missionaries GAINED the respect of the pagans by showing friendship, integrity and charity.......that leads to dialogue......which leads to understanding."....which leads to love and that my friends leads to JESUS!!!
Yay!!!!

 

The Holy Father hs said it is wrong anmd a 'nonsense' to, 'Proselytize', others.

I went to the Oxford Dictionary to see what the word meant and came up with:

pros¦elyt|ize

VERB

1. convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: "the programme did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many" ·
   [more]
   "proselytizing for converts" · "no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds"
   synonyms: evangelize · convert · seek/make converts ·
   [more]
   bring to God/Christ · bring into the fold · spread the gospel/word (to) · propagandize · preach (to) · win over · recruit · brainwash
   • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): "Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas"
     synonyms: promote · present · spread · proclaim · peddle ·
     [more]
     propound · preach · back · urge · suggest · support · advocate · endorse · champion · sponsor · espouse · advance · further · assist · aid · help · contribute to · foster · boost

RELATED FORMS

proselytizing (present participle)
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Clearly then the Apsotles and saints would have been wrong in converting
others and laying down their lives to do so if this is the case.

 

Again the Merriam-Webster's simple definition:

Simple Definition of proselytize

• : to try to persuade people to join a religion, cause, or group

I can't see anything wrong with proselytizing under any of these two definitions, the Apostles and saints and countless heroic missionaries have been trying to convert people for over 2,0o0 years.

Why stop now?

 

Thanks Kathy. I always appreciate your perspective. Unfortunately, it is fallen on increasingly blind eyes at this forum.. Peace.

 

No, I don't believe for a moment the Pope is promoting false ecumenism, although at the same time I am fairly sure that there are many both inside and outside the Church who would like him to... My intuition is that once Francis has either died or retired that the false ecumenical vision will take off in earnest, pleading continuity with Pope Francis's own openness as a pretext but subtly tweaking his words and actions to suit a completely different agenda (of course we know that this is already happening, but for the moment there are still too many people willing to call out the manipulation for it to go unchecked).

On a deeper level, however, I guess that I am not the only one to have the feeling that there is ultimately something very mysterious happening going on - any Pope is only part of a larger Divine plan, after all. Ultimately we know that before the Lord returns (whenever that may be), the events of the Book of Revelation and elsewhere in Scripture must take place. There is no getting around this. Not only does that include the rise of the Beast, but if you take mystical tradition at all seriously, it also includes the apostasy of the Church and the rise of a false form of Christianity. We simply have to go through this as it is permitted by God, although obviously not actively willed by Him. It would be child's play for the Lord in His sovereignty to stop everything dead in its tracks if He so wished: all He would have to do is to give Pope Francis a vision (as with Leo XIII) or miraculous sign (as he did with Pius XII in the Vatican gardens in 1950) if He wanted to steer him in a different direction. God may still do this, of course, but for the moment my impression is that this is all an act in a Divine Drama that has to be played out, perhaps because the miracle of the reunification of the Body of Christ is inevitably going to be accompanied by its counterfeit. The two proceed in lockstep, which is why it is so important not to let false ecumenism overshadow its true counterpart. We just have to trust the Infinite Wisdom of God to deal with everything. Which He will in His time.

 

Thank you Kathy for this reminder. The second reading for this upcoming Sunday is very timely:

Reading 21 COR 12:31—13:13
Brothers and sisters:
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts.
But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

If I speak in human and angelic tongues,
but do not have love,
I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy,
and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge;
if I have all faith so as to move mountains,
but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own,
and if I hand my body over so that I may boast,
but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind.
It is not jealous, it is not pompous,
It is not inflated, it is not rude,
it does not seek its own interests,
it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing
but rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails.
If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing;
if tongues, they will cease;
if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child,
think as a child, reason as a child;
when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror,
but then face to face.
At present I know partially;
then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
So faith, hope, love remain, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

 

A few thoughts

Proselytize...Could Francis be following the spirituality of Mother Teresa. Her Proselytizing was by actions not words. If most of us believe in Divine Will maybe our Holy Father is following Gods Will. Like many other Saints... Our Holy Fathers spirituality seems to be based on his personal actions. And if you read his sermons, they are more mystical then both Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul 2.

I can make a argument that Pope Benedict is like God the Father (The intellectual...who enjoyed the intellectual side of the Catholic Church). Pope John Paul the Second can be God the Son (The great Proselytizer who roamed the world). And Pope Francis could be like God the Spirit (The man of action...showing us by his example normal everyday life but having a great knowledge of the mystical).

Each having their style but each converting souls in a special way.

There might be more then one way to proselytize.

Just a thought

 

I was thinking the same thing, FS. Then I did a little research. And I smiled.

Taken out of context, put in bold letters and trumpeted, I can understand why Pope Francis' statement, "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense," can be considered cause for concern. Fortunately, statements are not made in a vacuum and, although isolating a certain statement to fit one's argument or agenda can be effective, such a tactic does not ultimately carry the day.

Personally, my sense when I read those words was that Pope Francis, who seems to be more a man of action than a man of words, was trying to get the point across, "Don't just talk at people about the Gospel, show them." Or as the Letter of James reminds us, "Be doers of the word." Who can argue with that? In fact, it reminded me of the statement often attributed to St. Francis, who told his friars something to the effect of, "Go preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

So, when I woke up this morning to this latest kerfluffle on our forum, I decided to do some homework. Lo and behold, I found an interesting comment from Pope Benedict -- yes, the same Pope Benedict whose papacy is remembered lovingly and longingly by those who are frequently bothered by Pope Francis -- who stated: “The Church does not grow by proselytizing; she grows by attracting others.” And he's right. We convert by doing, not by preaching down to or at others. I believe that is the "solemn nonsense" that Pope Francis was pooh-poohing.

I found that quote from Pope Benedict in the context of a marvelous speech that Pope Francis gave to Catechists in 2013 (yes, Pope Francis quite often quotes Pope Benedict), you can read the entire thing here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...cesco_20130927_pellegrinaggio-catechisti.html. I certainly invite everyone to do so.

The bottom line is that the only "solemn nonsense" being spouted around here is by those who continuously overreact to snippets and sound bites without doing their homework. Is there cause for concern in our Church and our world? Of course. Should we all be on guard and alert? Of course.

However, as my kids like to say, we also need to "get a grip." There is evil out there, but it is not lurking behind every statement from Pope Francis.

 

bflocatholic,

I'm with you. For instance, every Wednesday morning, I take a 15 minute drive with my son, Daniel, to the Wilsons. Rick gives a 45 minute voice lesson and then Diane provides a 45 minute piano lesson for Daniel. The Wilsons come from an Anabaptist tradition; they are beautiful, committed Christians, but of course I would love for them to become Catholics. This is how I approach it. I bring along some homework from either my Spirituality or New Testament course and work while Diane is nearby in the kitchen. We'll share how God's moved in our lives or maybe I'll share a Scriptural insight from one of my courses. I know that they've heard some anti-Catholic sermons at their church and so through gentle sharing about raising our children or asking her to examine a particular verse, I'm working at demolishing their preconceived notions of what it means to be a Catholic. Now, this is not all a facade; I do treasure their friendship. But I am planting seeds. Now, I do have to try to prevent them from assuming that the O'Loughlins are closet Protestants in the Catholic Church, so I do share tidbits about my love for the Church and do ask "but what about this" questions. The established friendship can handle such challenges, though. In summary, I'm not simply dumping Catholic Answer pamphlets in their laps. With Mary's help, may they come to see it's not a matter of being right or wrong, but the realization of what they lack. It's a path I've chosen that requires both diligence and patience.

Please pray for me and for both Rick and Diane. Thanks!

Safe in the Barque of Peter!

 

Yes. There is a very clear hermeneutic of continuity from John Paul to Benedict and now to Francis. Thanks for highlighting it for us.

 

Yes it is a mystery. I certainly don't claim to understand it Peter.

At first I was deeply disturbed by all that has occured, the confusion wasn't just on the outside in Church generally it was in me. It still is in fact. But I am more at peace now with it all. That is prayer for you.

It seemed to me praying about all this last night that it resembels a giant football match in the Church. Some folks more and more taking one side of the argument and otheres taking the other. That it is not a simple case of good guys , bad guys, there are good guys and bad guys on both sides. That we should not assume that just because are on the other side , so to speak they are bad people. In fact we should always in charity assume the best .

It is a very unfamiliar feeling for spiritually and gives me a funny feeling in the pit of my stomache like a lift going down fast, but I cannot take for granted that I am more right or less wrong than anyone else in this confusion. I am taking one step in front of another and doing my best . Short of some kind of direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, some blinding light I just stumble on. So this confusion has given me a huge shot of humility, which is always a great blessing.

The last thing I saw in prayer was the picture of an old Amish coach being harnessed to a Porcsh sports car. The poor old Amish wagon starting to fall to bits.

The old Amish wagon is the Church. The Porsch is the Holy Father. I am convinced that the Church is heading for Schism because the speed for change is simply too quick.

Jesus said something about this:

Matthew 9:17
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

The Church has been here for 2000 years I don't see why we have to be in such a whirlwind rush. The wineskin is about to burst.

I heard a story about the saintly Lutheran Monk , the late Brother Roger of Taize. Brother Roger was visitng Pope St John 23rd in the Vatican and rebuked the them Holy Father concerning the opulence of the place and asked what Jesus would think of it all?

To which the Holy Father and Saint replied,
'Lentamente! Lentamente!'

(Slowly, slowly)

I guess St John knew the difference between a Porche sports car and a new wineskin.
Schism is effectively already under way. We don't have to wait for it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Roger

 

Amen, bf. And your last comments are so spot on, I'm going to copy them here again for effect. You are completely correct and I would add that it is evil that is causing some on this forum and others I know to be so wary and accusing of Pope Francis. Stay in the ship, those that are rocking this boat are doing great harm to themselves and to others who may be influenced by the constant hysterics. We all have our faults and many of us are trying to help you as brothers and sisters in Christ to recognize that evil is poking at and inflaming your faults.

"The bottom line is that the only "solemn nonsense" being spouted around here is by those who continuously overreact to snippets and sound bites without doing their homework. Is there cause for concern in our Church and our world? Of course. Should we all be on guard and alert? Of course.

However, as my kids like to say, we also need to "get a grip." There is evil out there, but it is not lurking behind every statement from Pope Francis."

 

"The Church has been here for 2000 years I don't see why we have to be in such a whirlwind rush."

Padraig, I feel that the reason why we DO need to be in such a whirlwind rush is because the greatest tribulation in the history of the world is imminent. Time is running out to save souls, it's the precise reason he opened the doors of Mercy this year.

 

Mercy? For some reason I just can't imagine seeing this say, prior to 1960, starting after 1:40:

 

The late Brother Roger's statement (echoing strongly as it does of politically correct liberalism) reminded me instantly of Judas and his admonition of Mary for anointing the feet of Our Lord with expensive oil.

Coincidentally, I am reading an excellent freely downloadable e-book by Professor Bruce Charlton about political correctness called "Thought Prison", which asserts that the root of this evil lies in an excess of (suicidally misguided) altruism, one without love, and as Saint Paul demonstrated nothing works without this quality. It seems to me Judas was a practitioner of political correctness.