Milleniarism, postmillenialism, premillenialism, amillenialism and Catholic Cathechism

No, it's just that I'm embarrassed for you. An era of peace is not the heresy of millenarianism.

 

and I am embarrassed FOR YOU - you clearly did not expect that somebody will check the quote and find out that it has absolutely no connection with your heresy of mitigated millennialism or temporal future Kingdom a.k.a. era of peace/new Pentecost

 

Go back and read. The quote was used to support the Church's theology that the coming of the Kingdom of God is not limited to the definitive coming at the end of time. I was not addressing the "millennium" at that moment but expanding the definition of what the "coming of the kingdom" means, including Pope Pius' theology that the Church is to spread among the nations (Matt 24:24) as "the kingdom of God". That's why I was embarrassed for you. You are too quick to assume that I (and others) are dishonest, unscrupulous and conniving.

Second, the era of peace is not the heresy of millenarianism. We've already debated that.

Last, when you become personal like this, it denigrates the conversation. This kind of pettiness is the reason the world does not believe in Jesus—they can't see Him in us. I am as much to blame as anyone.

I entered this forum to clear the air on some public statements and perhaps add a few insights from the Church's Tradition. I did not expect there to be this kind of response among brothers. But then, maybe I am a little naive. Forgive me if I can no longer devote time to a debate that ultimately is pointless (and I'll be the first to admit it). For what comes, will come—whether we understand it or not.

 

I did read. This quote has nothing to do to support your theory of the future Kingdom of God but everything to do with the 1925 task of veneration of Our Lord Jesus Christ as King. And if you did not know that the quote had nothing to do with your thesis, because you copied it for Fr. Ianuzzi's book - have the courage to admit the mistake that you personally did not vet the quote. I can admire the honest beliefs even if I consider them a mistake, but I can not admire the young man reverting first to insults and when it fails - to being offended, when somebody points out where the mistake of the twisting quote is made.

As for the future spread of the Kingdom of God which is the Catholic Church - it has been spreading for almost 2000 years, so relating to it as to the event yet to come is if not a heresy, than a heterodoxy, probably.


Matthew 28:18-20

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.' And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. ...and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you: He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but He who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

 

In Search - your posts appear to lack prayerful reflection! You shoot too much from the hip or should I say lip!

When I read Mark Mallett's posts it sets my heart on fire.

When I read your posts there is just too much self!

God Bless you but you would challenge the patience of a saint

 

Yes! You got it. That was precisely my point. As for using that quote elsewhere, that sentence stands alone as a theological axiom. It can be used to explain several aspects of our faith regardless of whether its source is found in the context of an encyclical on venerating Christ, atheism, or papal attire. I respect that you don't agree with the Triumph/period of peace/spreading of the Kingdom (Church) as being the same. So be it.

Peace.

 

Garabandal, I am not a preacher, so my aim is not setting you heart on fire

If I see the cat being black, I call it - BLACK, not "dark greyish", "not white", "dark" or "unspecified". If that's seems uncharitable to you - so be it.

Mark used at least 2 quotes which have been twisted and became very offended in not brotherly love expressed when it was flat pointed out to him( the other one I did not even bring here from the other thread, but it is about St.Augustine)

I am sorry if this hurts your feelings toward the person who sets your heart on fire, but if he twisted the quote - he twisted the quote. Or just cut&pasted it from Fr. Ianuzzi's book, without vetting.
Which in pure scientific discussion we have is an unforgivable offense ( well, unless he admits that he twisted the quote or did not vet it)
p.s. yes, I did some research and am used to scientific discussions.

 

really? I have been preaching this from the very beginning, so it seems to me that it is you, who finally got it, because it was NOT your precise point, quite the contrary - n your blog and all the time here you proclaim the Kindom of God/period of peace/millenium triumph yet to come. How come this sudden turnaround?

It is the very core of amillennialism, which what the doctrine of the Catholic Church stands for ( and me, too)

 

In Search - I respect you as a brother in Christ - you have talents and abilities that God is going to use for the glory of His Kingdom.

Can I ask you a personal question?

Do you pray before you post?

 

Mark,
To be honest what you have done these past days is resort to pettiness when the heat is on you. I know you are not used to it-not having comments on your blog for anyone to challenge you and here there are several of us (and more who have contacted me ) who have shown your thesis up for what it is:blatant millenarianism. You have basically set up your own magisterium-reinterpreting Scripture where is is clearly defined in Tradition and the Catechism.
Facts:
1 you erroneously state the Antichrist will come before the Millennium
2 You reinterpreted Jesus Coming in glory defined by the CCC as only referring to the Last Judgment
3 You promote Lactantius who clearly taught an earthly reign of Jesus
4 You claim a commission has magisterial weight--ridiculous . Ask any canon lawyer. If that is so why did Pope Paul VI not accept the commission's positive verdict for artificial contraception? Does the Medjugorje commission have the final say? Of course not. Just because the Pope chooses the members doesnt mean they have the final say.
5 You claim you are given permission to publish Luisa Piccaretta's writings. Fr Iannuzzi doesnt have authority to give you that. The Archbishop said nobody was to do that in his latter from late last year
6 You falsely claim on your website that St Bernard talked of a future intermidiate coming( as Fr Iannuzzi also did)- he didnt. Read what JP II and Benedict XVI stated on several occasions about that famous phrase.They never linked it to that, but both said it referred to the continual "comings" of Jesus through history in the operation of the Sacraments.
7 If you do want to talk about commissions, why not go for the most recent on eschatology from 1992 ( a Commission under the direct leadership of Ratzinger ."In 1992 the International Theological Commission addressed this issue (Ratzinger was the president of it and approved it's publication)
" There is silence about eschatology today for other reasons, of which we single out one: that is, the rebirth of the tendency to establish an innerworldly eschatology. This tendency is well known in the history of theology, and beginning with the Middle Ages it constituted what came to be called “the spiritual heritage of Joachim de Fiore”.9

This tendency is found in some theologians of liberation, who so insist on the importance of establishing the kingdom of God as something within our own history on earth that the salvation which transcends history seems to become of rather secondary interest. Certainly, these theologians do not deny in any way the truth of realities beyond human life and history. But since the kingdom of God is located in a society without divisions, “the third age” in which “the eternal Gospel” (Rev 14:6-7) and the kingdom of the Spirit are to flourish is introduced in a new and secularized form.10

In this way a certain kind of “eschaton” is brought within historical time. This “eschaton” is not presented as the ultimate absolute, but as a relative absolute. Nonetheless, Christian praxis is directed so exclusively to the establishment of this eschaton that the Gospel is read reductively(which is exactly what you do Mark), so that whatever pertains to the eschatological realities absolutely considered is in great part passed over in silence. In this way, in a theological system of this sort, “one places oneself within the perspective of a temporal messianism, which is one of the most radical of the expressions of secularisation of the Kingdom of God and of its absorption into the immanence of human history.” Now Mark, if you want to claim this is only about liberatioon theology. I would be very happy because in doing so you will be admiting that millenarianism is not only about the purest form-so either way your thesis is completely ruled out.
8 You have produced not one single papal quote which explicitly refers to Rev 20 and a temporal era.
9 You fail to understand the development of Tradition which is why you cannot accept that the Holy Spirit guided the Church in the first millenium to see that the theory of those early Church Fathers was not correct. And of course while you were happy to use many quotes from my book, you couldnt bring yourself to mention the footnote I had concerning Ratzinger destroying your theory on the greatest of the early Church Fathers."Interestingly, In Cardinal Ratzinger’s Eschatology and Utopia, he refers to St. Irenaeus’s supposed millennial tendencies, but stresses that the notion of a Kingdom of Christ on earth “is really only a postulate of his [Irenaeus’s] Christology and concept of God. Ratzinger also quotes Hans Von Balthasar who says that Irenaeus was reflecting his belief in the coming of a new earth, as well as Old Testament prophecies that the just would finally and irrevocably possess the land (Joseph Ratzinger in Communio Volume 1, 17)
10 You talked about it being a new age. Yes Mark quite right. Lets take a look at this quote on the Vatican website " Jesus spoke not of the end of the “world”, but of the end of the “age” (aion in Greek), the present period of salvation history. God was doing something new in Jesus. The Hebrew olam,Greek aion, and Latin saeculum all have temporal as well as spatial dimensions (age, period, eon, but also world). Kingdom of God language in New Testament usage is primarily temporal, not spatial. The realization of the promise will occur within history as its culmination, and not, as in Platonic, anti-material views, just over the edge into eternity. So the kingdom hope is for this world, but in a new era"
Report of the Third Phase of the International Theological Dialogue
between the Catholic Church and the
World Alliance of Reformed Churches (1998-2005)
The new era as myself and insearch have continually said come after the last judgment in a new era with no end.
Continued....

 

11 you seem to have a problem accepting the Notification of Vassula Ryden and the doctrinal error announced in it( that an era of peace will come in history (after the Antichrist comes first-just as a reminder Mark Ratzinger signed it, and Lavada restated its weight)
12 You falsely claim St Faustina diary has leanings towards the millenium. Absolute rubbish. Did you read the very first page of Heralds where She told Blessed Michael Sopocko the world will end soon? Did you read how Our Lord said "You will prepare the world for my final coming" not "you will prepare it for a temporary Kingdom"
13 Have you bothered to read messages from approved apparitions : St Faustina-final coming. Kibeho-Alphonsine Mumareke (Now a Nun) stated Our Lady told her she had come to prepare "souls for my Son's return". San Nicholas Argentina "The Coming of the Lord is imminent"
14 Pope Benedict prayed for a peace with no end to come now
15 Pope Benedict refuted your thesis perfectyl in Light of the World "I maybe to rationalist for that- to express any expectation on my part that there is going to be a huge turnaround and that history will suddenly take a totally different course" Mark is that a pope who is prophecying a world in which a "new and divine holiness" will bringa bout a new era? And of course this statement came immediately after he corrected Peter Seewald idea that the Triumph would include some apparition of Mary. Benedict stated explicitly that the Triumph is the Coming of the Kingdom at the end of the world.
16 Why is there no era of peace in St Hildegard's five ferocious eopchs (full papal approval by the way) Why does the Antichrist come directly before the Last Judgment?
Mark, I am sorry but you need to accept in all humility that neither you me or anyone else has any authority to start giving new interpretation to Scripture.The irony is that you accused me of a protest eschastology and yet you are the one who does as they do .Would you like to reinterpret the doctrine of the Holy Eucharist?
17 One last thing. Remember cardinal Grech whom you and Peter B were praising so much, how he found Vassul's answers "excellent"? do I need to spell out who the other Cardinal it was who rejected your theory?

I am sorry if anyone else doesnt like this post, but it is a duty to show error up for what it is. I dont do it lightly but I will not sit here seeing the papal teachings mangled by someone who has the nerve to reinterpret what the Church has already defined. In all humility I ask you Mark to take stock and reflect on what you propose constantly because it s not Catholic.

 

Sorry I meant as a sister in Christ

 

Whoa, hold it right there!

You are at it again, calling people heretics whilst at the same time conflating "millennialism" (I'm not sure that's a word; try millenarianism) with the era of peace, all while calling yourself "scientific".

You still have YET to produce one official Church document defining amillennialism as THE DEFINITIVE interpretation of the Millennium.

Tick, tock...

 

That about sums it up perfectly.

 

I am interested in this idea that the end of the world will be soon. The apostles thought it would be soon and our generation likewise thinks it will be soon. As a father of 3 young men [23, 22 and 15] I hope and pray they will have children [within marriage!] who in turn will have children - I hope from heaven to see my descendants in their multitude. Again this is only my opinion but I would be surprised it there are not a few more millennia yet!

2 You falsely claim St Faustina diary has leanings towards the millenium. Absolute rubbish. Did you read the very first page of Heralds where She told Blessed Michael Sopocko the world will end soon? Did you read how Our Lord said "You will prepare the world for my final coming" not "you will prepare it for a temporary Kingdom"

Soon to God could be a thousand years because a thousand years is like a day to God. It just would seem amazing that God would cut things so short after only two thousand years of temporal history - two days really. On suspects there will be another day a third day at least since our Lord rose on the third day.


13 Have you bothered to read messages from approved apparitions : St Faustina-final coming. Kibeho-Alphonsine Mumareke (Now a Nun) stated Our Lady told her she had come to prepare "souls for my Son's return". San Nicholas Argentina "The Coming of the Lord is imminent"

Everything leads to the return of the Lord. In the light of eternity a few thousand years is nothing!

I reckon the world will not end so soon but that is an opinion that is purely subjective

 

Pray before post?

No.

I think you are taking this way too seriously.
It is a discussion about a book and an opinion.

 

I think we have a duty to pray before we do anything. God will hold us to account for every word we say or write. We need to pray for Divine wisdom in order that we are conformed to the Divine Will.

Otherwise we are not different from the secularists, atheists or even pagans.

Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote thousands of pages - on each one were the letters J & M Jesus and Mary. That is the Spirit in which we all must write.

 

Gara

 

^
This

 

You are, probably, right, though I am not used to it.

On your question about the end of the world - that is what it looks like - tribulations/persecutions/ chastisements with a reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years and then the Glorious Second Coming, resurrection f the dead and the Last Judgement. After that the new earth and new heaven for eternity - for those who'll get there