Padriag - I'm enjoying reading your conversion story on that old thread that you posted in signs of the times area. It will take me a while to get through it, but I am very interested in contemplative prayer. However, I think this is more of a gift from God and is not easily achieved without tremendous graces. What do you think? I'm pretty good a imagining the life scenes of the mysteries and my mind does not wander much at all. However, the only scenes I can come up with are from Passion of the Christ and Jesus movie from about the year 2000. I'm not very creative on my own I'm afraid. Any suggestions on stirring the imagination? Sorry if this info is contained in your 7 gardens thread...I'm still in the process of reading that too.
In the old days, Mystical Theologians and Churchmen generally had an exclusive , elitist viewpoint on prayer and grace, Ps. Fr instance laypeople were thought of as rather second class to clergy and religious. They were thought as being too bust to get praying and so get themselves holy so to speak. My novice master one time in the monstery asked me if I thought lay people generally would be as holy and have as high a place in heaven as monks (like himslef) ; he was very put out when he I said I thought that very many of them in my exoerience were real saints and there was no reason why a layperson should not be holier than the monks, many far,far holier. He looked somehwat miffed at this answer and asked then why the monks should bother so much and not stay in the world? Which I found very funny. :lol: :lol: He also asked me one time how often I Prayed,shortly after I entered the monastery and when I told him I prayed al lthe time without ceasing he again looked vexed and unbelieving and said, 'That's impossible you would have had to be a monk in the moastery for 50 or sixty years to be doing that!' Which again I found funny and strage. :lol: I reminded him that many, many people in the world have to bear very great crosses and the Cross pulls us to the Sacred Heart of Jesus very quickly. We ,of course hear of 'ordinary' Catholics on this froum having to bear very great Crosses nearly everyday on the Forum , often not seeing that what they see as obstacles and burdens are actually golden ladders to heaven, golden escalators in fact. But the reason why the Novice Master got it wrong was that he was putting the horse before the cart. It is not what we can do for God, it is ALL ABOUT WHAT GOD CAN DO FOR US. iN OTHER WORDS ITS ABOUT GRACE RATHER THAN EARNING ONE'S WAY TO HEAVEN. Jesus put it best, as He always does, when He said, Matthew 3:9 NIV New International Version And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. I have to get to Mass, I will finish this later. :wink:
I love your thoughts! They are sending me off to my job with goodness in my heart and a focus on prayer. I wish I could get myself to church everyday as well. Hmmm- Have work on that. Going to the shrine in Wisconsin this weekend- will be praying for everyone. Pray, pray, pray Kath
I wish I could go with you Kathleen. I am trying to book a place in the caravan park in Knock for 14th 15th and 16th August for the Feast. But have heard no word yet.
The reaosn PS I am belabouring this point about God giving rather than us earning is that it is central as to why some folks make quick progress in the path of prayer and others seem to get stuck in the mud. For understanding of the heart, rather than the mind of this is the real doorway to contemplative prayer and the full inflowing of the Holy Spirit. Imagine a Father with two small children. He asks them both to climb a large mountain, which seems impossibly high. One of His children grits his teeth and sets of to struggle up the mountain on its own. The other takes a long look at the mountain, says to herself that she just cannot do it and turns to her Father stretches out her arms and asks her Father to lift her and carry her there!1 So simple yet so profound. There is a wonderful sequewnce in the film , 'The Song of Bernadette' which I often like to watch. St Bernadeete after seeing Our Lady enters a convent where her novice mistress has a huge chip on her shoulder and a very big axe to grind. Why one Earth did Our Lady choose to appear to an illetrate peasant girl like Bernadette when here was a wonderful lady in a convent who had prayed her knees to the bone, studied her head off, worked herself stupid and has her eyes red as blood with weeping over her sins? A much , much better candidate for a visit from heaven (she thinks) than Bernadette who had done nothing, nothing at all to earn it? ]
As to the best way to pray and the fastest to contemplative prayer. Well... Everyway , every soul is different. From reading different spiritual authors I think a key mistake that very many of them make is in the impicit (or explicit) assumption that the path that they have troodden is the best way. Not so. For each soul is different and the steps that we called to walk may not be the pathway for all. All I can tell is the way that Mary taught me and it served me well. But I am open to fact that Mary may call others to walk a very idfferent path, for we are all her children and how boring Eternity would be if we were all the same. :shock: Mary when she taught me to pray taught me to say the rosary like this: http://www.youtube.com/user/padraigpearse?feature=mhee#p/u/9/SvHJCo1zDpA Praying it very slowly, thoughfully, prayerfully and reverence. As she says it herself. If we do this everyday with reverence I believe we will run on the road to heaven...if we are like little children and do not get carried away with ourselves...like Bernadettes novice mistress. :lol: :lol: Prayer isw not complicated...unless we wish to make it so.
Kathleen, Nice to hear you are going to Our Lady of Good Help this weekend! I will pray that the rains will clear and you will have beautiful weather! I don't think it is raining up there quite as much as it is here though. We have had a drought here for a few weeks, but now tonight it has been nonstop rain all night, they are calling it a "rain train" of storms. They just keep going...the lightning is constant, with almost no lull in it since about 8 pm (it is now 2 am). But the storms themselves have not been too severe overall, thank God. Goodness knows we needed the rain for the corn and beans (and my blueberries!) but too much is bad too, as flooding occurs. a week ago I was praying for rain, earlier tonight I was praying for the storms to not be severe (as there were some funnel cloud sightings), now I am praying for the rain to stop! whew!
On the subject of compemplative prayer, I think I am such a long way away from it still. I still worry about time when I am praying, although I wish I wouldn't. I think I have the desire, but not the practice down. I do say the rosary much slower than the "rosary ladies" in the churches, or even the nuns on EWTN. If you notice, Mother Angelica says her part slowly, almost exactly like you do, Padraig, but then the nuns do their part faster and more "chanty". I used to get irritated when I was with a group who rushed through the rosary, but not anymore. Someone once explained about the fast chanting way of praying, and how the people learned this, and somewhere along the line I decided it didn't matter that they were setting a speed record, that it could be just as meaningful. However, when alone, I do put much more thought into the words I am saying with each one I say. I do not say it quite as slowily as you do, Padraig, but I seem to do it slower than most of the other people I hear. I am not sure I fully understand, though what contemplative prayer actually is. How it is different than "normal" prayer...
I think I have read that there are two ways to pray the Rosary. The way Connie is doing it- slow and thoughtful about the prayers themselves or in a way that allows you to meditate upon the mystery- which might go with the fast chanty or slow recitation, but if you are contemplating upon your life and how to apply the lessons of the mystery you are pondering, then you are not really focussed on the words of the particular prayer but focussed on God will. I know that is not the only way to contemplate, but that's how I sometimes pray the Rosary. I bet Mary would prefer me to slow further down and contemplate between the prayers- LOL Oh well, I do try. Sometimes I just sit with God and ponder life and his will. Is that contemplative? I think so. I am trying to listen and discern. Sometimes it works. Pray, pray, pray Kath
Thanks Padraig and everyone, for all of your insights. From how I understand contemplative prayer, it seems the person is almost literally there at the scene of the mystery. And from what I understand when you say the rosary, you are somehow transported to the actual events, maybe in the same way the mass is cavalry all over again. I could be wrong of course so someone please correct me if I am. I highly desire to really be at the scene of the mystery and when I meditate on the mystery I usually put myself in the picture some way. Sometimes I'm next to Mary at the foot of the cross, or I'm in the crowd as Jesus is baptized, or I'm enjoying the wedding wondering why the servants are filling the buckets with water. Sometimes if I haven't been to confession for a while I'm the one whipping Jesus or pushing him down as he struggles carrying the cross. But I really desire to be there in the sense that I want to feel the sun on me when I'm next to Mary when she is visited by Gabriel. I want to know what the stable smelled like where Jesus was born...it's probably pretty smelly :lol: I guess I want all my 5 senses involved and be there as literally as I can. Interesting thing happened to me in adoration 2 weeks ago. With my unemployment cross, I have been asking Jesus for some time now to let me know what He wants me to learn from all of this. Well, as I was saying the rosaray, right in the middle of a mystery, He really put on my heart that I had abandoned Him in the sense that I gave up hope that my prayers would be answered and that I had no confidence in my prayers or that He was in charge of this situation. The analogy I've always thought in my head in terms of my faith was that I would always, always be with Mary at the foot of the cross as he was dying and not with Peter in the hills. Through thick and thin, this is where I'd be. When the abuse scandel was big here, I'd think look Jesus, I'm here not abandoning you as your church is being persecuted...I'm right here. Or when I defended the church to family members, I'd say here I am Jesus, I'm with you at the cross and not in the hills with Peter, even though that would have been so much easier. I was always so proud of myself, as everyone else seemed to be with Peter. Well, Jesus showed me how that place next to Mary at the foot of the cross where I always envisioned myself was empty!! When I thought He wasn't helping me...I left and went in the hills with Peter :shock: Trust me, I nearly cried right then and there!! It was then that I realized how weak my faith is, and I am only as strong as the graces He gives me and my cooperation in accepting the graces. My faith is oh so tiny and I can do nothing without Jesus. I stopped the rosary and wrote about 3 pages in my journal...all my feelings in that moment. Then I continued with my rosary, as I had 3 more mysteries to go. When I started the prayers, it was like I was praying in slow motion...it was like someone else had taken over the pace of my prayers and I couldn't pray them any faster if I tried. It took me about 30 minutes to do just 3 mysteries!! I usually do all 5 in 30 minutes!! It's not like I'm consciencely praying fast, but I'm from Boston and we talk fast and do everything fast, so it's just my normal way. But, I think I got a private lesson from our Lady or someone in terms of slowing down and really meaning and feeling each word. So, that is the way I have prayed since then. Now it takes about 45 minutes to do 5 mysteries, and I think last night in adoration it took a little longer than that. I definately have to fight going faster, but I believe I'd been shown how the rosary should be prayed, so I'm trying very hard to comply!!
I think it is one of the most wonderful things PS the way Jesus talks directly to our own situation , bring wisdom, insight and healing. Its really quite extraordinary. I sit at the window during the morning during mass and have a lovely view of the monastery garden and all that goes on there. After mass I sit praying and often sit , gazing out. The other morning I looked and saw a cloud of , 'Midgies' tiny little flies hoveing over a bush. The way the sun caught their wings they were like a bunch of little diamonds hovering in the air. Then I felt God calling me to listen and He asked, 'What can you hear?' Well ,I told Him Icould hear a lorry passing, I could hear the men gossipping outside the door, I could a stange hum from the heating... Then He said, 'Well I can hear the sound of the of the 'Midgies' wings beating! Every one'.' ....and I thought to myself , 'Well you can't beat that! Luke 12:7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Later on in work I devoped a very bad Migraine, which blinded me and I had to ask permission to leave half way through the day. Embarrassing and discomfiting and I felt Jesus say to me as I drove home, look for the positive in this, seek meaning. As I got home I found the alarm on my radio was going off. I recalled a neighbour complaining about if I had a smoke alarm going off. I discovered I had left the alarm going off everyday while I was at work and this was disturbing my poor neighbours...now if I hadn't had the headache I would never have discovered this and kept on annoying them. So I found a positive!! But Jesus is very practical, its not just pie in the shy stuff, He's really down to Earth. he can even hear the beat of little flies wings beating. He will never need to buy a hearing aid.He can even hear my radio alarm. :lol: :lol: Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings Exodus 23:20 "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.
Thanks for your sharing, PotatoSack! From Matthew 5: Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God!
