The vast majority of Catholics who are aware of the term take it to mean the 1958 type: This type of Sedevacantist is universally reviled by every other faction in the Church, be they rad trad, traditionalist of the diocesan, Ecclesia Dei or SSPX variety, conservative, middle of the road or liberal Catholics. This is mainly because they as a group are very combative, dismissive and patronizing towards the rest of the Catholic community. There is no reasoning with them. And those trying to brand JHW with this slander know quite well both it’s negative connotation and that it does NOT apply to JHW and the employees in question. Someone who believes Bergoglio to have been an antipope is NOT a Sedevacantist. And such behavior here will be called out for what it is, a vicious slur and personal attack.
I think we are both right. The Cardinal Siri "conspiracy" says he was elected both times. Malachi Martin says it was 63 so I went with that date. Talking with some they seem very divided on the issue. I will take Brian's word about Mel but listening to his interview with Joe Rogan I got the feeling he is.
It is true there could be two definitions of sede vacantist. One who is an old fashioned type of Trad and one who had severe doubts about Papa Frankie. These are unprecedented times. I remember way back in the day when Papa Frankie starting acting up our late member Luke asked me if I was a sede vatacantist. The Church holds that anyone who says a Pope is not a Pope is automatically excommunicate. So this caused me lot of thought. But what can you say? A 'Pope', who is a Wolf rather than a Shepherd cannot be a Pope. Someone who is actively working to destroy the Church cannot be in any real sense its leader. Perhaps it goes back to the question if Judas was a real Apostle? I would say he was not. He was meant to be but never made the grade. Personally after a while I never regarded Papa Frankie as a real Pope. To do so would, to me, be a little like calling darkness, light. As to being a Sede Vacantist in the sense it is usually used then I am not. Nor do I think John Henry was. But if they mean it in the sense that asking serious questions about Papa Frankie makes one such then maybe. But I do not think this is what they meant in the accusation. Recall they are making this accusation after Papa Frankie was dead. So I don't see how this term is applicable either way.
These are such very,very confusing times. Someone wrote that even a St Catherine of Sienna or a Saint Thomas Aquinas would be confused in these dark days. If the saints would even be confused I hope the good God will make allowances for us poor lay folk who are baffled at the wickedness going on. But when the smoke of battle clears and the history of these Dark, Dark days comes to be written people like John Henry and Raymond Arroyo will be numbered amongst the true greats in the annals of Our Holy Mother the Church. The bottom line is it was the ordinary lay folk rather than the Clergy who stepped up to the mark and went into battle in Defense of the Truth, whilst the cowards and hirelings deserted their posts or went over to the enemy. The Bishops who stayed silent will have much to explain to a very angry God at the Last Judgement. The sheep have stepped up to defend the Holy Flock whilst the shepherds fled. Our Blessed Lady forecast this all so well in Equador long ago. https://www.virgosacrata.com/our-lady-of-good-success-prophecies-for-our-times.html Prophecies Our Lady prophesied that at the end of the 19th Century and especially in the 20th Century that Satan would reign almost completely by the means of the Masonic sect. The Queen of Heaven told Mother Mariana that this battle would reach its most acute stage because of various unfaithful religious, who, “under the appearance of virtue and bad-spirited zeal, would turn upon Religion, who nourished them at her breast.” “During this time,” she continued, “insomuch as this poor country will lack the Christian spirit, the Sacrament of Extreme Unction will be little esteemed. Many people will die without receiving it – either because of the negligence of their families or their false sentimentality that tries to protect the sick from seeing the gravity of their situations, or because they will rebel against the spirit of the Catholic Church, impelled by the malice of the devil. Thus many souls will be deprived of innumerable graces, consolations and the strength they need to make that great leap from time to eternity…” “As for the Sacrament of Matrimony, which symbolizes the union of Christ with His Church, it will be attacked and profaned in the fullest sense of the word. Masonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the objective of doing away with this Sacrament, making it easy for everyone to live in sin, encouraging the procreation of illegitimate children born without the blessing of the Church. The Christian spirit will rapidly decay, extinguishing the precious light of Faith until it reaches the point that there will be an almost total and general corruption of customs. The effects of secular education will increase, which will be one reason for the lack of priestly and religious vocations…” “The Sacred Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed and despised. …The demon will try to persecute the Ministers of the Lord in every possible way and he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation, corrupting many of them. These corrupted priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will incite the hatred of the bad Christians and the enemies of the Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church to fall upon all priests. This apparent triumph of Satan will bring enormous sufferings to the good Pastors of the Church….” “Moreover, in these unhappy times, there will be unbridled luxury which, acting thus to snare the rest into sin, will conquer innumerable frivolous souls who will be lost. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women. In this supreme moment of need of the Church, those who should speak will fall silent.” “But know, beloved daughter, that when your name is made known in the 20th century, there will be many who will not believe, claiming that this devotion is not pleasing to God… A simple humble faith in the truth of My apparitions to you, My predilect child, will be reserved for humble and fervent souls docile to the inspirations of grace, for Our Heavenly Father communicates His secrets to the simple of heart, and not to those whose hearts are inflated with pride, pretending to know what they do not, or self-satisfied with empty knowledge.” During this time, Our Lady foretold, “the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour.” “Therefore, clamor insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the privacy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His ministers and bring to an end those Ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of its priests.” On December 8, 1634, the feast of the Immaculate Conception, three archangels and their Queen appeared to Mother Mariana. St. Gabriel was carrying a Ciborium filled with Hosts which Our Lady explained: “This signifies the Most August Sacrament of the Eucharist, which will be distributed by my Catholic priests to faithful Christians belonging to the Holy Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church, whose visible head is the Pope, the King of Christianity. His pontifical infallibility will be declared a dogma of the Faith by the same Pope chosen to proclaim the dogma of the Mystery of My Immaculate Conception. He will be persecuted and imprisoned in the Vatican by the unjust usurpation of the Pontifical States through the iniquity, envy and avarice of an earthly monarch.” This holy Pope was Blessed Pius IX, who fulfilled every prediction made by Our Lady. His body, being exhumed for beatification in 2000, was found miraculously preserved in the tomb where it had lain for more than a century. His face still showed a striking serenity in death. Another most interesting prophecy of Our Lady: “In the 19th Century there will be a truly Catholic president, a man of character whom God Our Lord will give the palm of martyrdom on the square adjoining this Convent. He will consecrate the Republic to the Sacred Heart of My Most Holy Son, and this consecration will sustain the Catholic Religion in the years that will follow, which will be ill-fated ones for the Church. These years, during which the evil sect of Masonry will take control of the civil government – will see a cruel persecution of all religious communities, and they will also strike out violently against this one of mine.” The “truly Catholic” president of Ecuador, Gabriel Garcia Moreno (1821-1875), consecrated the republic to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in 1873. Pope Pius IX paid him tribute as a man who had died “the death of a martyr…a victim to his Faith and Christian charity.” Gabriel Moreno’s incorrupt heart and the famous painting of Our Lady of Quito can be seen in the Cathedral of Quito.
It is only by the way but I notice that many Catholic sources are charging their fellow Catholics money for, 'Members only', content. This is wrong. It shows an over interest in Mister Money.
I came across these prophecies and the story of Our Lady of Good Success almost 20 years ago and I am always consoled that in the end Satan and his minions will be crushed by Our Lady. Interestingly a copy of statue of Our Lady of Good Success stands atop Long Tower Church in Derry as long as can be remembered. Nobody seems to know who placed it there but it overlooks the graveyard where St Clare Crockett is buried. I take it as a sign that Our Lady's victory is near.
Someone sent me a video of Irish people singing Our Lady of Knock in a Church in Madrid a few days ago. It was very moving. They were meeting to push the canonsation of Sister Clare. It is really amazing how fast her cause is going forward.
Yes they do say he was elected twice. But none of the major groups (the CMRI, SSPV, MHFM, etc.) subscribe to the Siri thesis, mainly because there are photographs of him celebrating the new Mass.
Thanks Brian. Just out of curiosity and given that there have been periods in Church history where there were anti-Popes, rival Popes and various other disputes, was the term "sedevacantist" in the context of an alleged anti-Pope only invented in 1958?
Possibly, but I don’t honestly know. Regardless, in our current period, the term has quite a pejorative connotation, and its application towards anyone EXCEPT true 1958 sedes is fully intended to denigrate and ostracize its target. Unfortunately there is no current adequate and neutral term for those who believe Bergoglio was a usurper or an antipope.
[QUOTEAnd such behavior here will be called out for what it is, a vicious slur and personal attack.[/QUOTE] Brian, this is an overly harsh, under-the-belt response which it seems is designed to cow me into leaving the forum voluntarily under a cloud of humiliation - as someone who is supposed to be 'vicious' and guilty of personal attacks. And it may be seen also as a prelude to ejecting me from the forum for a bannable offense, should you not like my response. Could your comment above about Fr. Frank Pavone, which I will not repeat, be seen as a personal attack, especially if seen from Fr. Pavone's standpoint? Why would you accuse me of such nasty things when I am a Christian commited to loving my neighbour? Why would any Christian in the Church 'revile' (to criticise in an abusive or angrily insulting manner) another 'faction' in the Church? This is not a Christianity I recognise. The issue of sedevacantism had already been raised in relation to JHW, especially in the Chris Jackson article. I was responding in that context. I do of course know about the more specific definition of sedevacantism - those who do not recognise any of the Conciliar popes. I was using the term in its more general, literal meaning - "vacant seat". In fact, the term was defined in relation to JHW in Chris Jackson's article posted above: "sedevacantists, faithful Catholics who hold that men manifestly preaching heresy cannot be true popes". That is the context in which I was using the term. And you seem to forget or ignore that after mentioning sedevacantism, I qualified it by saying that JHW was "titering on the brink" of sedevacantism. That being said, I do apologise if I have impugned the reputation of JHW by saying that my own impression was that he was "titering on the brink". I have listened to JHW quite a lot and I respect him. Indeed, he has done imneasureably more for God's kingdom than I have done. I do believe also there are people on the forum who are "titering on the brink" of sedevacantism as defined, hence my statement about a similar fault-line being found here, as it is indeed found widely in the Church. And I listen to these people, learn from them and respect them. I did not mention any persons on this forum nor did I mention any other staff members at LifeSite (I don't know if you were implying this), so this could in no way be a personal attack. You say that someone who believes Pope Francis was an antipope is not a sedevacantist. That is perhaps true although I contend that if they had believed that when he was alive then they would have been one. And those who are adopting a wait-and-see attitude with Pope Leo would be "titering on the brink". It is nuanced because those traditional Catholics who are of the recognise-and-resist category are I would say titering, but if they call a sitting Pope a 'devil', e.g. Archbishop Williamson, R.I.P., then I would probably class them as sedevacantist despite their recognising that they sit on the Seat of Peter. I was and continue to express a personal opinion. I could contine but I will leave it at that. In view of your previous statement saying that any member of the forum who did not like the "new direction" of the forum (after the death of Pope Francis and the election of Pope Leo) could simply check out and leave, I cannot help thinking that you wish those, whose opinions you do not like or disagree with, to leave and perhaps you may predisposed to unfairly eject such persons. I hope that will not be the case. If you do ban me from the forum, I would contrast that with Padraig who is on record saying that it would be a very long time before he would ban anyone for expressing their opinions on the forum. If not then I think I will take a break in any case from the forum and concentrate on trying to become worthy of the promises of Christ. I do love you all and will keep you in my prayers.
My apologies. Since you referred to MOG members using the Sedevacantist label, I too felt personally attacked. I was the first outspoken forum member who expressed this about him, long before anyone else here. I still believe Bergoglio was a usurper at best, but probably an antipope. I am in no way a Sedevacantist and I am appalled when otherwise good Catholics label any other Catholics with that pejorative term. They should know better and it will not be used here against anyone except 1958 Sedevacantists because of its grossly negative connotations. Please do stick around. I wasn’t trying to run you off or attack. It was just a knee jerk reaction at being labeled such. But do find a more neutral and appropriate term for those convinced Bergoglio was not a valid pope.
Yes I am aware of that. But it’s not a completely satisfactory portmanteau in my mind. Although the “bene” gives it a much less sinister character.
Dr. Ralph Martin got cancelled. Firing Was ‘A Shock’ for Theologian Ralph Martin https://www.ncregister.com/news/firing-shock-for-theologian-ralph-martin
Oh dear, I'm sure it was a shock. I pray that this will be resolved soon, and special prayers for Mr. Martin and his family during these discordant times.
