A discussion began in the Garabandal News thread. It is interesting but it rather 'muddies' the Garabandal News thread. i shall be attempting to c&p the relevant posts from that thread here. And hopefully the discussion can continue here.
stephen said: ↑ Blue Horizon, just for clarification, are you suggesting that the writings of St Faustina have not been fully approved? I know Michael Brown on spiritdaily has peddled this false claim. They most certainly are. Pope John Paul quoted them often, most spectacularly in Poland in August 2002 "May this message radiate from this place to our beloved homeland and throughout the world. May the binding promise of the Lord Jesus be fulfilled: from here there must go forth "the spark which will prepare the world for his final coming" (cf. Diary, 1732)." I would emphasize the reference to "binding promise" That's right Stephen. Her writings are certainly approved to be in accord with Catholic Doctrine - she would hardly have been canonised if they were not. You will have to forgive me if I do not see the Pope's generic statement above as an unequivocal acceptance of the gospel truth of all her prophetic writings in every detail. So as far as I am aware, like the approved apparitions at Fatima and Lourdes, we are not bound to accept them. If a Catholic chooses to ignore them or consider them untrustworthy they are perfectly enititled do do so without being any lesser a Catholic for so doing. I am certainly willing to be corrected if you can source more weighty, explicit formal pronouncements from the Pope than the one sourced above. I observe this is a Garabandal thread so we cannot always assume other members will easily accept all the alleged and sometimes forced "tie-ins" that people try to make from other forums re Malachi, Faustina, Fatima, Akita, Revelation etc. Personally, when it comes to "predicting" when the Warning will happen (or even the nature of the Chastisement) I find this attempted link-up somewhat strange even if we accepted other prophecies are all "true". Some contributors do not seem to realise they are equating/confusing the "end of the world" with Garabandal's "end of times". Clearly they are very different things. One is the end of one epoch (and the beginning of another) while the other is..., well, the end of the Universe. Two completely different things. Unless someone can correct me, I have found no direct statements via the seers at Garabandal that there would be any portents of nature to signal either the start of the "end of times" nor the immanent arrival of the Warning. I have not been able to find any mention of earthquakes, famines, weather extremes, floods or other such natural events. Plenty of moral disasters (ie directly caused by human vice) happening and increasing were mentioned to preceed the Warning which of course continues. But preceeding portents of nature were not mentioned from what I can see? The main thing that first seems to portend the coming of the Warning are: the Church appears on the brink of perishing as it passes through a terrible Test by the hand of "Communism" revived. I believe confusion on these matters is due to the confusing reports re the two Nights of Screams. Conchita, the oldest seer, was not present for the first Night; it seems the two younger girls were so upset the first Night that they confused events surrounding the conditional Chastisement with events surrounding the Warning. Non-contradictory information concerning these 2 nights only surfaced much later. Perhaps I am wrong but "fire from the sky" and the extreme heat and rivers of blood is more likely from the vision of the conditional Chastisement - not something between the Testing of the Church (Tribulation time) and the lead up to the Warning. Conchita does not seem to speak of any Natural portents associated with either the Testing of the Church nor the lead up to the Warning. I would appreciate if someone can quote sources to clarify this admittedly confusing area. Personally, I am not even sure whether the Warning itself will be predictable by the astronomers because it is meant to be "from God." So I am not sure about all the meteor/comet, solar flare fanfare either. As Joseph Pelletier wrote: "the warning is something supernatural and will not be explained by science." (God Speaks at Garabandal, 1978). The Catholic Church does not yet seem to be on the brink of perishing nor has "Communism" (Atheism?) visibly revived either. (Islam yes, but not really "Communism" from what I can see). Therefore I suggest the Warning may still be some time away. I do not see how Mrs Saraco's April 2013 Miracle prediction can take place without her predicted Warning happening in Dec 2012. In theory it could happen in the next few weeks...but the Testing of the Church doesn't seem to have fully taken place yet. Blue Horizon, Wednesday at 12:08 AM #1242 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Blue Horizon, The issue for me was you seemed to imply that the Church had canonized St Faustina, but without approving her revelations. The comparison with Fatima etc is that just as those revelations are deemed authentic, so are St Faustina's. Whether Catholics need to accept them is not the issue. The fact that Blessed John Paul II quoted them in his homilies means they are now part of his authentic magisterium. Catholics are to accept the ordinary teaching of the magisterium, therefore if the popes quote words of Jesus to St Faustina, then we can be certain that the popes have accepted them. to consider the contrary does not make any sense. Why would a pope refer to a "binding promise" of Jesus if the Church has not accepted she ever saw the Lord? As far as the end of time v end of the world is concerned, I hope you will consider reading my book Heralds of the Second Coming, because it proves beyond doubt that there is no difference. Cardinal Ratzinger stated that the idea of an "end time" within history followed by a new era before Jesus' return is false. Pope John Paul in an ad limina address to Brazilian Bishops in 1996 also ruled it out. I should stress that in the book i dont mention any as yet unapproved apparitions deliberately. I wanted to present for the first time the authentic eschatological teaching of the popes on this very important matter-but I can show how there is no contradiction between an era of peace and the last judgment. stephen, Wednesday at 1:08 AM #1245 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Blue Horizon, There will never be an end to the universe. And that is precisely where the whole end times v end of the world problem lies. people dont seem to realize that the world will never end as such it will be definitively renewed (including the entire universe) stephen, Wednesday at 1:17 AM #1246 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63
stephen said: ↑ Blue Horizon, The issue for me was you seemed to imply that the Church had canonized St Faustina, but without approving her revelations. The comparison with Fatima etc is that just as those revelations are deemed authentic, so are St Faustina's. Whether Catholics need to accept them is not the issue. The fact that Blessed John Paul II quoted them in his homilies means they are now part of his authentic magisterium. Catholics are to accept the ordinary teaching of the magisterium, therefore if the popes quote words of Jesus to St Faustina, then we can be certain that the popes have accepted them. to consider the contrary does not make any sense. Why would a pope refer to a "binding promise" of Jesus if the Church has not accepted she ever saw the Lord? As far as the end of time v end of the world is concerned, I hope you will consider reading my book Heralds of the Second Coming, because it proves beyond doubt that there is no difference. Cardinal Ratzinger stated that the idea of an "end time" within history followed by a new era before Jesus' return is false. Pope John Paul in an ad limina address to Brazilian Bishops in 1996 also ruled it out. I should stress that in the book i dont mention any as yet unapproved apparitions deliberately. I wanted to present for the first time the authentic eschatological teaching of the popes on this very important matter-but I can show how there is no contradiction between an era of peace and the last judgment. Stephen - I'm a little confused. Are you talking about the "millennial reign of Christ" as the Evangelicals believe? I thought that was what JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke against. It's my understanding that there is no contradiction between the last judgement and the potential era of peace, but that the millennial reign of Christ is contradictory to Catholic eschatological understanding. In fact, isn't there a defined heresy about the millennial reign idea? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. From what I've read, I don't think there are any accepted private revelations within Catholicism that leans toward the millennialism ideas ("accepted" meaning both approved and canonized authors), but that none of these private revelations contradict an era of peace. MarkW, Wednesday at 2:12 AM #1249 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
stephen said: ↑ Blue Horizon, The fact that Blessed John Paul II quoted them in his homilies means they are now part of his authentic magisterium. Stephen you cannot be serious. I am sorry but that very generalised quote alone simply cannot bear the huge weight you wish to rest upon it. Also, there is a big difference between a priest/bishop preaching in his own person along with their own doctrinally sound opinions and beliefs - it is another to formally speak as from the Chair of Peter. There are set Vatican protocols/traditions for making sure the faithful can distinguish between the two. I don't believe the circumstances you indicated above meet those criteria - unless you can source documents otherwise? Blue Horizon, Wednesday at 4:01 AM #1253 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
stephen said: ↑ Blue Horizon, There will never be an end to the universe. And that is precisely where the whole end times v end of the world problem lies. people dont seem to realize that the world will never end as such it will be definitively renewed (including the entire universe) Stephen I am simply paraphrasing Catholic Doctrine which, we all agree, states that at the end of time there will be Final Judgement and a new heaven and a new earth. One could call that a "renewal" rather than an "end" I suppose if one wasto be pedantic. However it isn't the present heaven and earth as you and I know it Scotty (Star Trek). That's what I mean by the "end of the universe". Nothing new. But the point is, predicted Garabandal events appear to have abolutely nothing to do with this event. Blue Horizon, Wednesday at 4:16 AM #1254 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Credo said: ↑ Earlier in this discussion thread someone was inquiring if the "Warning" and "Miracle" have been mentioned in other credible sources of private revelation. Here are a few 'possible' occurrences: Pope Pius IX (1792-1878) "There will be a great prodigy which will fill the world with awe. But this prodigy will be preceded by the triumph of a revolution during which the Church will go through ordeals that are beyond description. —Trial, Tribulation & Triumph: Before, During and After AntiChrist, by Desmond A. Birch, p. 375 St. FaustinaKowalska (1905-1938) describes an illumination of conscience which she experienced: Suddenly I saw the complete condition of my soul as God sees it. I could clearly see all that is displeasing to God. I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for. What a moment! Who can describe it? To stand before the Thrice-Holy-God! — Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §36. Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort: All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and there will be great darkness over the whole earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Savior were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day. —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §83 Write: before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice... —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §1146 St. Edmund Campion (1540-1581): I pronounced a great day… wherein the terrible Judge should reveal all men’s consciences and try every man of each kind of religion. This is the day of change, this is the Great Day which I threatened, comfortable to the well-being, and terrible to all heretics. —A Complete Collection of State Trials and Proceedings for High Treason and Other Crimes…, by William Cobbett, Vol. I, p. 1063. Blessed Anna Maria Taigi (1769-1837): Known for her astoundingly accurate visions, also spoke of such an event. She indicated that this illumination of conscience would result in the saving of many souls because many would repent as a result of this "warning"… this miracle of "self-illumination." — Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi in Antichrist and the End Times, p. 36 Mystic Maria Esperanza (1928-2004): The consciences of this beloved people must be violently shaken so that they may "put their house in order"… A great moment is approaching, a great day of light… it is the hour of decision for mankind. —Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi in Antichrist and the End Times, p. 37 Fr. Don Stefano Gobbi (1930-2011) "A new fire will come down from heaven and will purify all humanity, which has again become pagan. It will be like a judgment in miniature and each one will see himself in the light of the very Truth of God. Thus sinners will come back to grace and holiness; the straying, to the road of righteousness; those far away, to the house of the Father..." — Our Lady to Fr. Gobbi, May 22, 1988, Feast of the Pentecost Matthew Kelly The mini-judgment is a reality. People no longer realize that they offend Me. Out of My infinite Mercy I will provide a mini-judgment. It will be painful, very painful, but short. You will see your sins, you will see how much you offend Me every day. I know that you think this sounds like a very good thing, but unfortunately, even this won’t bring the whole world into My love. Some people will turn even further away from Me, they will be proud and stubborn…. Those who repent will be given an unquenchable thirst for this light… All those who love Me will join to help form the heel that crushes Satan. — The Miracle of the Illumination of Conscience by Dr. Thomas W. Petrisko, pp. 96-97 Message from the Blessed Virgin Mary to Elizabeth Kindelmann (1913-1985): The elect souls will have to fight the Prince of Darkness. It will be a frightening storm — no, not a storm, but a hurricane devastating everything! He even wants to destroy the faith and confidence of the elect. I will always be beside you in the storm that is now brewing. I am your mother. I can help you and I want to! You will see everywhere the light of my Flame of Love sprouting out like a flash of lightning illuminating Heaven and earth, and with which I will inflame even the dark and languid souls! But what sorrow it is for me to have to watch so many of my children throw themselves in hell! Also see: (1.) http://books.google.ca/books?id=BIj5aKW1NEwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=illumination of consciences&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pKQ2UeW6CuSbygHekoD4BQ&redir_esc=y Hi Credo. I suggest that anything written/reported after 1962 is best regarded as "copy-cat" or "fitted" until shown otherwise. Not sure about the relevance of any of the others - the older they are the more generalised and atemporal/mythic they seem to become. Personally I do not really see significant equivalence with the details of the Warning or Miracle reported from Garabandal - apart from the usual broad principles everybody knows to expect from the example of Christ and the prophets: e.g. the good are rejected, the evil appear to triumph, God intervenes in a special way. Perhaps you could provide some explicit quotes from the mystics involved and points of detailed comparision vis a vis Garabandal details? Blue Horizon, Wednesday at 7:12 AM #1255 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Jane, the book is available here at http://www.amazon.com/Heralds-Second-Coming-Blessed-Benedict/dp/1621380157/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362486454&sr=8-1&keywords=stephen walford I just finished writing it several weeks ago, so it is just out. Please let me know your thought once you have read it. Blue Horizon, i am sorry, but you are wrong about the popes magisterium. There is the ordinary and extraordinary. The popes homilies, general audience addresses etc are all part of the ordinary magisterium which are to be accepted by catholics. When JP II quoted Jesus, that was part of his teaching authority. he was speaking as "Peter" not as Karol Wojtyla. To prove my point, Pope Benedict, when he released his books on Jesus stated that they were NOT part of his magisterium, therefore he said people could disagree with him. He was writing as a private theologian without the full weight of the papal teaching authority. We do not need infallible declarations for the approval of the revelations-as there were not for any other approved ones either. St Faustina's writings are on the same level as Fatima, Hildegard of Bingen. stephen, Wednesday at 9:41 AM #1256 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Stephen - Let me first say I'm going to order and read your book. I'm curious if you have you read Kelly Bowring's "The Secrets, Chastisement and Triumph of Two Hearts"? He does a good job of bringing scripture, the catechism and prophetic revelation together. A brief summary of what he wrote (hopefully, I will get this right since I only read the book once so far and there is so much information) is the following events will occur: Warning Miracle 25 year "springtime of the Church"; a transition time between the current era and the final era Anti-Christ will rise at the end of the 25 years 1000 year reign of Christ in the hearts of mankind (7th day) Secrets of Medjugorje haven't been revealed so are likely scattered throughout this timeline We are now at the end of an era and are going from the 6th day to the 7th day. When looking at it in relation to the Christ's life, the Church in Her life is entering the crucifixion. Are you in agreement with this? Again, I'll read your book since, from your writings and the church support I see on Amazon, you have certainly done your homework and I thank you for that. I'm just curious if you are in agreement or where you disagree with Kelly Bowring on the furture events the Church and mankind will go through. Tina S, Wednesday at 3:01 PM #1260 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-63>
Credo said: ↑ Earlier in this discussion thread someone was inquiring if the "Warning" and "Miracle" have been mentioned in other credible sources of private revelation. Here are a few 'possible' occurrences: St. FaustinaKowalska (1905-1938) describes an illumination of conscience which she experienced: Suddenly I saw the complete condition of my soul as God sees it. I could clearly see all that is displeasing to God. I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for. What a moment! Who can describe it? To stand before the Thrice-Holy-God! — Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §36. Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort: All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and there will be great darkness over the whole earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Savior were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day. —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §83 Write: before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice... —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, §1146 - Credo And I think there is one more reference from St. Faustina: "...My hand is reluctant to take hold of the sword of justice. Before the Day of Justice I am sending the Day of Mercy." (1588) Jon, Wednesday at 4:25 PMReport #1262 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-64>
Well done Jerry for putting this together. I was starting to get cross eyed reading them on the other thread.
Tina, Thanks so much for your interest. I hope you enjoy it. Concerning Kelly Bowring, lets just say, read what the popes have said and then you will see the truth! Crucifixion of the Church? Absolutely yes 100%. Have a look in the catechism and see where the magisterium places the coming of the Antichrist. For the popes there is to be no era of peace within history. We are heading for the last judgment as foretold by St Faustina and St Hildegard of Bingen. Millenarianism is alive and well! (unfortunately) stephen, Wednesday at 9:41 PMReport #1269 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-64>
MarkW said: ↑ Stephen - I'm a little confused. Are you talking about the "millennial reign of Christ" as the Evangelicals believe? I thought that was what JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke against. It's my understanding that there is no contradiction between the last judgement and the potential era of peace, but that the millennial reign of Christ is contradictory to Catholic eschatological understanding. In fact, isn't there a defined heresy about the millennial reign idea? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. From what I've read, I don't think there are any accepted private revelations within Catholicism that leans toward the millennialism ideas ("accepted" meaning both approved and canonized authors), but that none of these private revelations contradict an era of peace. MarkW spot on!! (although the popes say the era of peace comes after the final judgment) stephen, Wednesday at 9:54 PMReport #1270 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-64>
Even Fr Ianuzzi's theory is ruled out stephen, Wednesday at 9:56 PMReport #1271 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-64>
stephen said: ↑ Jane, the book is available here at http://www.amazon.com/Heralds-Second-Coming-Blessed-Benedict/dp/1621380157/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362486454&sr=8-1&keywords=stephen walford I just finished writing it several weeks ago, so it is just out. Please let me know your thought once you have read it. Blue Horizon, i am sorry, but you are wrong about the popes magisterium. There is the ordinary and extraordinary. The popes homilies, general audience addresses etc are all part of the ordinary magisterium which are to be accepted by catholics. When JP II quoted Jesus, that was part of his teaching authority. he was speaking as "Peter" not as Karol Wojtyla. To prove my point, Pope Benedict, when he released his books on Jesus stated that they were NOT part of his magisterium, therefore he said people could disagree with him. He was writing as a private theologian without the full weight of the papal teaching authority. We do not need infallible declarations for the approval of the revelations-as there were not for any other approved ones either. St Faustina's writings are on the same level as Fatima, Hildegard of Bingen. I am sorry Stephen. I most profoundly disagree with this view. The detail of private revelation cannot have the same magisterial standing as truths of the Gospels. And the very generalised satement in the Pope's homily, even if it were remotely considered "ordinary magisterium", doesn't actually say what I think you are trying to make it say . Blue Horizon, Yesterday at 12:20 AMReport #1289 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-65>
I never said it had the same standing of truths of the Gospel. Pope John Paul said spreading the message of Divine Mercy was his "burning desire". If you remember this particalar discussion began because you appeared to question the authenticity of St Faustina's revelations. I have mearly stated that the popes have approved them and spoken of them.I think you are confusing infallible declarations with what is contained in the ordinary magisterium. stephen, Yesterday at 12:26 AMReport #1290 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-65>
stephen said: ↑ I never said it had the same standing of truths of the Gospel. If you remember this particalar discussion began because you appeared to question the authenticity of St Faustina's revelations. I have mearly stated that the popes have approved them and spoken of them. I think you are confusing infallible declarations with what is contained in the ordinary magisterium. OK, hand up, I'm confused as to what you are actually saying Stephen. Lets back up the truck and re-look at what you wrote previously: "The issue for me was you seemed to imply that the Church had canonized St Faustina, but without approving her revelations." "The comparison with Fatima etc is that just as those revelations are deemed authentic, so are St Faustina's." "Catholics are to accept the ... [revelations of St Faustina]" "... we can be certain that the popes have accepted them." "Why would a pope refer to a "binding promise" of Jesus if the Church has not accepted she ever saw the Lord?" Sounds like you are saying all her detailed private revelations are "authentic", "approved" and must be accepted as on a par with the truth of the Gospels or one is not a real Catholic to me. Can you clarify what you really mean? Re "May this message radiate from this place to our beloved homeland and throughout the world. May the binding promise of the Lord Jesus be fulfilled: from here there must go forth 'the spark which will prepare the world for his final coming'". Yes JPII powefully communicated and encouraged evangelisation of the message of God's mercy (which we know from the OT and especially the life of Jesus, and which mercy St Faustina obviously strongly communicated) which we all know is available to sinners before the Last Judgement in these the "last days" (i.e. since the birth of Jesus). Nothing new here. As JPII put it: "Through [St Faustina] the Lord Jesus communicates to the world the great message of God's mercy..." (JPII) Let's not become confused about what the "great message" is that JPII wants to "radiate from this place". It is not Faustina's collection of prophetic writings and private revelations. Its simply standard Biblical Revelation (especially that God is revealed as a God of mercy) as can be seen from the following: "The Lord Jesus chose Sr. Mary Faustina as the Apostle and "Secretary" of His Mercy, so that she could tell the world about His great message. In the Old Covenant —He said to her —'I sent prophets wielding thunderbolts to My people. Today I am sending you with My mercy to the people of the whole world. I do not want to punish aching mankind, but I desire to heal it, pressing it to My Merciful Heart.' " (JPII) The Pope simply calls for us to be prophets of God's message of mercy just like St Faustina: "[she] reveals the pattern of Christian perfection based on trust in God and on the attitude of mercy toward one's neighbors." (JPII) Nothing about spreading her collection private writings. This is hardly the wholesale endorsement of a collection of detailed prophetic eschatalogical writings that you seem to be suggesting. It is more about an imitation of her great virtues under God's grace as a modern day prophet. Re the "binding promise"... well from the above contextual quotes from JPII it seems he means the Biblical promise of mercy to his people through the prophets. Yes I accept he probably "lifted" this phrase (and many other quotes) from St Faustina's writings and re-directed them for his own purposes. Lets not be so simple as to think the Vatican and its Popes do not, in this delicate way, keep its heroic saints fitting examples for the faithful to emulate while at the same filtering out and downplaying aspects of their lives they are not wanting to endorse. Clearly the Pope had this in mind when he made a point of also quoting St Faustina herself: "The years she had spent at the convent were filled with extraordinary gifts, such as: revelations, visions...with the entire supernatural world... Sr. Mary Faustina knew that they do not in fact constitute sanctity. In her Diary she wrote: 'Neither ... revelations...nor gifts granted to a soul make it perfect, but rather the intimate union of the soul with God.'" (JPII) This is why I do not see the canonisation of St Faustina as, by that fact alone, a "canonisation" of all the details of her private revelations. The Pope seems to be saying exactly this here by his obvious "re-directions" away from her detailed private revelations. Blue Horizon, Yesterday at 2:58 AMReport #1299 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-65>
MarkW said: ↑ Stephen - I'm a little confused. Are you talking about the "millennial reign of Christ" as the Evangelicals believe? I thought that was what JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke against. It's my understanding that there is no contradiction between the last judgement and the potential era of peace, but that the millennial reign of Christ is contradictory to Catholic eschatological understanding. In fact, isn't there a defined heresy about the millennial reign idea? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. From what I've read, I don't think there are any accepted private revelations within Catholicism that leans toward the millennialism ideas ("accepted" meaning both approved and canonized authors), but that none of these private revelations contradict an era of peace. stephen said: ↑ MarkW spot on!! (although the popes say the era of peace comes after the final judgment) From one of the Church Fathers: "Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says In Your sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day. And as God laboured during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labour during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquillity and rest from the labours which the world now has long endured. But how that will come to pass I will explain in its order. We have often said that lesser things and things of small importance are figures and previous shadowings forth of great things; as this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes its limits. In the same manner also the fashioning of the earthly man held forth to the future the formation of the heavenly people. For as, when all things were completed which were contrived for the use of man, last of all, on the sixth day, He made man also, and introduced him into this world as into a home now carefully prepared; so now on the great sixth day the true man is being formed by the word of God, that is, a holy people is fashioned for righteousness by the doctrine and precepts of God. And as then a mortal and imperfect man was formed from the earth, that he might live a thousand years in this world; so now from this earthly age is formed a perfect man, that being quickened by God, he may bear rule in this same world through a thousand years. But in what manner the consummation will take place, and what end awaits the affairs of men, if any one shall examine the divine writings he will ascertain. But the voices also of prophets of the world, agreeing with the heavenly, announce the end and overthrow of all things after a short time, describing as it were the last old age of the wearied and wasting world. But the things which are said by prophets and seers to be about to happen before that last ending comes upon the world, I will subjoin, being collected and accumulated from all quarters." Lactantius Divine Institutes, Book VII Fear of being accused of the heresy of millenarianism (earthly reign of Christ for 1000 years in the flesh), has kept people from understanding that the "Day of the Lord" may be a 1000 year "Day" where Christ reigns through His Church and His Holy Spirit after the vanquishing of evil (The Triumph of the Immacualte Heart). ...As Mary brought forth the Redeemer of the world in His humanity, then Mary, as the Queen of Heaven, the Woman Clothed with the Sun of Revelation 12, has a chosen role in bringing forth the Redeemer in his Divinity now for that "Day of the Lord". Jon, Yesterday at 3:25 AMReport #1300 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-65>
Blue Horizon said: ↑ OK, hand up, I'm confused as to what you are actually saying Stephen. Lets back up the truck and re-look at what you wrote previously: "The issue for me was you seemed to imply that the Church had canonized St Faustina, but without approving her revelations." "The comparison with Fatima etc is that just as those revelations are deemed authentic, so are St Faustina's." "Catholics are to accept the ... [revelations of St Faustina]" "... we can be certain that the popes have accepted them." "Why would a pope refer to a "binding promise" of Jesus if the Church has not accepted she ever saw the Lord?" Sounds like you are saying all her detailed private revelations are "authentic", "approved" and must be accepted as on a par with the truth of the Gospels or one is not a real Catholic to me. Can you clarify what you really mean? Re "May this message radiate from this place to our beloved homeland and throughout the world. May the binding promise of the Lord Jesus be fulfilled: from here there must go forth 'the spark which will prepare the world for his final coming'". Yes JPII powefully communicated and encouraged evangelisation of the message of God's mercy (which we know from the OT and especially the life of Jesus, and which mercy St Faustina obviously strongly communicated) which we all know is available to sinners before the Last Judgement in these the "last days" (i.e. since the birth of Jesus). Nothing new here. As JPII put it: "Through [St Faustina] the Lord Jesus communicates to the world the great message of God's mercy..." (JPII) Let's not become confused about what the "great message" is that JPII wants to "radiate from this place". It is not Faustina's collection of prophetic writings and private revelations. Its simply standard Biblical Revelation (especially that God is revealed as a God of mercy) as can be seen from the following: "The Lord Jesus chose Sr. Mary Faustina as the Apostle and "Secretary" of His Mercy, so that she could tell the world about His great message. In the Old Covenant —He said to her —'I sent prophets wielding thunderbolts to My people. Today I am sending you with My mercy to the people of the whole world. I do not want to punish aching mankind, but I desire to heal it, pressing it to My Merciful Heart.' " (JPII) The Pope simply calls for us to be prophets of God's message of mercy just like St Faustina: "[she] reveals the pattern of Christian perfection based on trust in God and on the attitude of mercy toward one's neighbors." (JPII) Nothing about spreading her collection private writings. This is hardly the wholesale endorsement of a collection of detailed prophetic eschatalogical writings that you seem to be suggesting. It is more about an imitation of her great virtues under God's grace as a modern day prophet. Re the "binding promise"... well from the above contextual quotes from JPII it seems he means the Biblical promise of mercy to his people through the prophets. Yes I accept he probably "lifted" this phrase (and many other quotes) from St Faustina's writings and re-directed them for his own purposes. Lets not be so simple as to think the Vatican and its Popes do not, in this delicate way, keep its heroic saints fitting examples for the faithful to emulate while at the same filtering out and downplaying aspects of their lives they are not wanting to endorse. Clearly the Pope had this in mind when he made a point of also quoting St Faustina herself: "The years she had spent at the convent were filled with extraordinary gifts, such as: revelations, visions...with the entire supernatural world... Sr. Mary Faustina knew that they do not in fact constitute sanctity. In her Diary she wrote: 'Neither ... revelations...nor gifts granted to a soul make it perfect, but rather the intimate union of the soul with God.'" (JPII) This is why I do not see the canonisation of St Faustina as, by that fact alone, a "canonisation" of all the details of her private revelations. The Pope seems to be saying exactly this here by his obvious "re-directions" away from her detailed private revelations. Blue Horizon, you said "Sounds like you are saying all her detailed private revelations are "authentic", "approved" and must be accepted as on a par with the truth of the Gospels or one is not a real Catholic to me. Can you clarify what you really mean?" Yes the revelations are all approved by the Church, just like St Margaret Mary's, St Hildegard's etc. I did not say ever they are on a par with the Gospel. And to suggest one who does not accept them "is not a real Catholic" is frankly ridiculous. Read my introduction to the book and you will see I clearly state nobody has to accept any private revelation. Pope John Paul did not mean the binding promise meant anything other than that quote about the spark from Poland which is why he made a direct reference to the Divine Mercy Diary number where it appears. One simple question for you: Why did Pope John Paul not make any reference to the revelations within the Diary before Faustina's beatification? Recall the great encyclical from 1980 on the Mercy of God in which there is no mention of her or her revelations-and yet George Weigel in his biography of JP II states "John Paul had been thinking about Faustina" leading up to the writing of that encyclical. The simple reason is that he was not prepared to then because the revelations were not yet approved, but since 1993 there have been plenty of quotes from JP II. Lets not twist the truth. If you dont want to believe in them that fine-but lets not spread a false claim. stephen, Yesterday at 1:37 PMReport #1311 Pasted from <http://motheofgod.com/threads/garabandal-news.2443/page-66>
