Charlie Johnston.

Just War Doctrine....http://www.catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302-2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor. Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. The following explanation of Just War Doctrine follows the schema given in the Catechism.

Righteous versus Unrighteous Anger (2302-3)

Anger is a desire for revenge. Anger is the passion (emotion) by which a man reacts to evil, real or apparent, and seeks vindication of his rights, that is, justice. By itself the passion is neither moral or immoral, but becomes so by reason or its being ordered or disordered - that is, reasonable according to the circumstances. An ordered anger is directed to a legitimate object, and, with an appropriate degree of vehemence. An inordinate anger is directed either to an illegitimate object, or, with an unreasonable vehemence. As St. Thomas Aquinas notes, vice may be by defect, as well as excess. So, the presence of evil should provoke a righteous anger, which if absent constitutes a sinful insensibility.

Consider the just anger of the Lord to the presence in the Temple of the money-changers and the action He took (John 2:13-17). Provoked by this offense against His Father, Jesus formed whips and drove them from the Temple. Righteous anger, and the acts which flow from it, intend the correction of vice (both for the go of the individual sinner and the common good), the restoring of the order of justice disturbed by sin, and the restraint of further evil.

 

Israel is the center of Gods world, we should not be that surprised that Israel is fighting to protect its people. Having said that, is it just to kill children...no it is not. My understanding of the scripture states that woman with children will suffer in those final days. The world is becoming darker and darker, Israel understands that the whole world is against them. Therefore, they have to do, what the have to do, to survive. I used to be a believer that if Israel went away... we would have peace, but a lieutenant in the Mossad told me "look how small Israel is, it is surrounded by many nations and millions of people that wants to destroy her, but Gods nation holds them back. If Israel falls, all the Muslims in the world will be united and will begin to expand jihad to the whole world". Something special is happening but it is not about warnings or worldly prophets...it is about saving souls. Prayers, sacrifice and the sacraments ...is all that Our Blessed Mother is telling us to do. Charlie, when you stated Our Blessed Mother said not to worry about souls, i think you might have made a mistake in your vision. I erased my real words to be charitable but it makes me sad to hear these types of comments. In the eternal conflict, the only thing that is important... is each and everyone of our souls.

May Gods Will be Done

 

The only homily that has ever made sense to me re. the 'sell your cloak and get a sword' comment of Jesus can be summarized as follows:

the only way to demonstrate that your are merciful is -
if you have a sword,
could use that sword,
but choose not to.

Having the sword makes you do an ACT of mercy, not just talk mercy.

You have the sword, you must choose between justice and mercy...


Israel is very pro-abortion.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-abortion-law-now-among-worlds-most-liberal/

God's chosen people have been chastised again, and again, and again down through history.

May all of us gain fully from God's mercy, not His justice.

 

I don't recall reading this in any of Charlie's writings. Can you direct me to that passage, or cut and paste it here?

 

There are two different issues being discussed here.

Yes there is the Just War Doctrine that applies to nations engaging in war.

I believe Charlie is referring to the use of force in self-defence when there is a collapse of civil society.

Imagine the scenario of a breakdown in law and order; no police force or civil order; societal chaos. Is it reasonable to use force in self-defence when attacked by a seething mob? Yes. I definitely would prefer not to use force; I don't want to use force ever, please God I don't ever have to. But I have a family wife and children and have responsibilities too for their protection. I will protect them from attack and harm. I have no option but to defend them as it is in my very DNA instinct to protect them from harm.

The real argument is about the use of reasonable self defence in the event of a break down in law and order and civil society.

At the moment in this time of relative peace and law & order I am still a warrior for my family. I am their prayer warrior. I pray always for them to be safe when travelling, safe when on a night out in town. But primarily I pray for protection from evil and for their full conversion. I have prayed for my boys (men) from the womb for them to accept God and right Christian living.

But prophecy indicates that there is a coming time of chaos and disorder and a break down of civilization, the end of times scenario. One nuclear EMP over a country would take it back to the Dark ages - we are one second from complete collapse and disorder. Violence would become the norm. What do we Christians do in this scenario?

We would of course trust God to guide us in all things. But if evil people hell bent on mayhem and destruction come to my home then I have duty to defend it. That is one scenario.

 

There is another scenario. I think the prophecy of refuges fits in here; basic Christian communities, of families living together under the mantle and protection of God. I have always sensed this to be true, not sure if Charlie agrees with this or not. Refuges would be a source of safety for the remnant Christian people - John Martinez has indicated that these will be places that the very angels will protect. Already we hear some people are moving to these places.

With difficult times come special graces. I believe we will see blessing before the full force of the storm. There is a coming blessing for the people of God to strengthen them for the coming times and the Holy Spirit will give us the wisdom to know what to do.

 

I'd like to add my voice to those welcoming Charlie. I hope you become a regular poster Charlie, your input will be fascinating. Welcome!

 

It might be a good idea on this thread not to get side tracked with the Middle East.

Better perhaps to let Charlie concentrate on prophesy and to answer questions. I , for one, am fascinated and waiting.....just so interesting....

 

Padraig I thought as Catholics we were supposed to be PRO-LIFE how am i supposed to listen to a prophet who dos not believe this. How can someone tell you to repent and love all Gods children when they do not practice this themselves. Murder by a Catholic is wrong, murder by an Arab is wrong , and murder by a Jew is called self defense. There are laws even in war to prevent all this murder, both sides are guilty of this but the silence of criticism is deafening. If i myself do not agree with criticism of all sides then i am biased or even worse i have a bigoted view towards one particular side. So with deep sadness i will give Charlie's prophecies a miss.

 

Eamonn... is self defense murder to you? Please define murder. Is any killing for any reason considered murder to you? If so, you do not have a Catholic understanding of killing (just or unjust). Was it murder when David killed Golliath? Was it murder when Maccabees killed his enemies and then "prayed that they be loosed from their sins"?

 

With you Eamonn on this. I supposed it was ok for the pharisee's to kill Christ, too. Judgement is coming to Israel, pray for her. The catholic church is the "new Israel."

 

Wait a minute everybody... Need to reduce the temperature on all sides, I think. There's a lot of confusion in this thread which needs to be disentangled if at all possible.
i) Firstly, the question of the veracity of Charlie's visions and his views on geo-politics (whatever you think of them) are not logically connected unless those views are intrinsic to the visions/communications from Above. What would be very helpful, Charlie, would be for you to distinguish what you are saying on the basis of private revelation from what you are saying as private opinion - to which you have a perfect right, of course.

ii) Secondly, concerning the question of the Church's relationship with Israel, we have been over this ground before, and as then I would like to propose a median position which acknowledges on one hand that the Mosaic covenant has been superseded and on the other that Israel still has special place in God's providence (as Cardinal Avery Dulles put it) because, as the Apostle Paul says, 'as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs [i.e. God's covenant with Abraham, pre-dating the Mosaic covenant], for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable' (Romans 11:28-29). This notion of special providence is of course linked to Paul's statement earlier in the same chapter that
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins" (Romans 11:25-27)
On this basis, it is wholly legitimate to affirm both that Israel remains in some sense a covenant people AND that the Church is the new Israel. Moreover, it is clear that the destinies of the two are intertwined, both in terms of the past (as borne out by the words on the Pelianito blog regarding the need to pray for Israel as an 'elder sister') and the future.

iii) This having been said, Christian acknowledgement of the ongoing role of Israel in God's economy is not equivalent to an 'Israel right or wrong' position. After all, it is crystal clear from the Hebrew Scriptures that God's relationship with Israel included chastisement for wrongdoing(e.g. the Exile). It does not mean that the present Israeli state has carte blanche to treat the Palestinians or anyone else as they see fit on the assumption that God's approval is automatic (curiously, that position is probably more widely held among US Evangelicals than in Israel itself given that so many Israelis are wholly secular).

iv) Care needs to be taken before translating general principles about Israel and the Church a specific situation such as the present Gaza conflict, which is undeniably complex and influenced by a volatile set of geopolitical alignments in the region (such as Turkey and Qatar's support for the Muslim Brotherhood and consequent opposition to Egypt's attempt to broker a ceasefire). It is surely possible to take a nuanced position which would affirm:
a) that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself against organizations such as Hamas whose stated aim is to eliminate them as a state
b) that there are also undeniable issues of economic and political grievances on the part of Palestinians which need to be addressed both by Israel and the international community
c) that these are not necessarily identical with the demands of the terrorists who are evidently attempting to manipulate international opinion into seeing the present conflict (which Hamas indisputably ignited and continued despite Israel's acquiescence to a ceasefire) as the correction of an injustice against the civilian population
d) that Israel has not always exercised restraint in her military operations and that the tendency of the Israeli political right to solve problems by the heavy-handed use of arms is ethically questionable as well as injudicious.

v) Trying to look at what is allegedly being said prophetically concerning Israel by some of the more serious voices out there, it would seem that things are not so simple as 'God will defend Israel under all circumstances'. I haven't seen many references to Israel in Catholic prophecy other than 'Locutions to the World' (towards which this Forum has serious collective reservations), but what is being predicted by non-Catholic figures regarded as credible by many (e.g. Neville Johnson, Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj, Terry Bennett, in addition to the word to Chad Taylor cited earlier) seems to run more or less along the following lines: chastisement has been appointed to Israel, and in a succession of military conflicts she will be betrayed by her best friend...finding herself surrounded on all sides and unable to solve her predicament militarily. It will be at this moment that God will provide supernatural deliverance in order to bring her to recognize her Messiah. This is Israel's date with destiny.

For your discernment, as always.

 

I believe Charlie and John have been sent to us to give us hope.

The vehemence against John's message here really astounded me. I wondered how long it would take for some to dismiss or rail against Charlie as well.

John was dismissed by some because of the atmosphere of holiness he described in the refuges. Many took offense that he said there would be no sin there. Others projected fear-mongering onto him that simply wasn't there. Now Charlie is being discounted because of his support of Israel and his belief in defending the people of God from attack. If you are determined against hearing a message, you can always find a reason for unbelief.

I suspect that what's really being rejected is the idea that our comfortable way of life is over. Even those who've been believers and followers of approved warnings from heaven might find that the speculation we've been engaged in has been purely an intellectual game.

The great storm is now upon us, and will quickly become very personal. I see John and Charlie's messages as practical help for a near and present danger. Please, please, please, take these messages to prayer, and ask the Holy Spirit.

 

I truly struggle with the killing thing personally. Though I agree that the killing for self defense and just war is ok I still struggle with it personally. Prior to my return back home to the church I was very big into the conspiracy theories of the world (and still am for I feel there is much truth there). I began to prepare and stock up arms and ammo food etc. This was purely for defense of my family. I am well trained in self defense (karate, judo, jiu-jitsu) and can defend and protect. I prayed often to God to help me in my training to be His warrior, to defend those that need defending. I think when it comes down to it any killing is wrong if it is against God's will but if it is God's will then how can it be wrong. I think it has to do with how one would feel after the killing personally. Would you mourn the fact that you just had to take life? Would you pray to God in sorrow no matter how evil the person was that you had to take the life of. If you answer is yes to that question then I truly feel you are of God and a loving human for even though you did not want to have to take life you did and felt great sorrow and not pleasure. Talk to any law enforcement person who has a soul and had to take a life and they will tell you the great sorrow in their heart for having to do so in the line of duty. I continue to struggle with this now in the days to come. Would I be able to defend and kill justly to defend or would I leave it to God? I don't know the answer to this until I am put in the situation but personally I feel that like Jesus told Peter, if we live by the sword then we will die by the sword. Dieing by the sword would not be something that damns us but I tell you I don't know if I want to die by the sword especially if dieing by the sword came before my family that I was defending. The horror they would see and lose to see their defender killed knowing the horrors that would follow for them. I would rather huddle with my family and wait to be joined together with them in heaven maybe but again I won't know these things until in the middle.

Now for the part about killing of children. As horrible is this may be and it honestly brings me to tears anytime harm comes to a child one cannot say that God is against it because he wasn't against in many places all over the OT and even mentioned the killing of children especially in Jericho. God does not change and did not change between the OT and NT. He is the same God and if it is his will for children to be killed then we cannot say this is wrong because that would be a grave mortal sin to pass judgement on God:

[20] So all the people making a shout, and the trumpets sounding, when the voice and the sound thundered in the ears of the multitude, the walls forthwith fell down: and every man went up by the place that was over against him: and they took the city, [21] And killed all that were in it, man and woman, young and old. The oxen also and the sheep, and the asses, they slew with the edge of the sword. [22] But Josue said to the two men that had been sent for spies: Go into the harlot' s house, and bring her out, and all things that are hers, as you assured her by oath. [23] And the young men went in and brought out Rahab, and her parents, her brethren also and all her goods and her kindred, and made them to stay without the camp. [24] But they burned the city, and all things that were therein; except the gold and silver, and vessels of brass and iron, which they consecrated into the treasury of the Lord

One final comment I would like to make. Phosphorus bombs are the creation of the devil in my opinion and are completely inhumane and should never ever ever be used. Israel is strong enough a force to ever have to use these kinds of evil weapons in Gaza. I do not agree in this form of brute force at all being used and do not feel when they use these kinds of weapons that this is in self defense and the will of God. Where is the remorse in using this kind of weapon?

 

Oh and one more thing, we already know that Israel falls for Christ told us this in Mathew 24:

[15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

If the abomination of desolation is standing in Israel then that tells me Israel falls and the good and holy left in Judea are told to flee to the mountains. Is this a metaphor or actual events? Maybe both?

 

I personally am inclined to believe Charlie. I wouldn't be completely positive until I gave time , prayer and study to them. Truth, like a good wine needs time to mature.

I agree with Peter. Charlies personal views about Israel don't affect for me the validity of the Prophecies them selves. After all many millions of American and other Catholics would support Charlie's views on Israel. I am sure many of them are saints with prophetic gifts.

Many saints , among them St Bernard of Clairvaux supported the Crusades something many modern Catholics are unhappy with but still no one suggests they were not saints.

During the Second World War for instance the overwhelming majority of Austrian Catholics support Anschluss.: Union with Nazi Germany , I would have no doubt many millions of them are now shinning as saints in heaven..

I am inclined to set aside Charlies views in this matter. I profoundly disagree with him, but he has the right to hold them.

I am still kinda sorry this whole matter has blown up. I would rather have heard all Charlie has to say without distraction, then after having heard certainly some discernment.

At the moment we seem to be doing the opposite , putting the cart before the horse, discerning before fully listening.

I really would like to get back to the messages themselves as I am very,very interested in them

 

Kathy,
Beautifully written!
When topics as this come up and thoughts prevail of the evil happening and the near future, human instinct comes forward in our reaction and expressions. It is explicitly at this moment that we PRAY and ask the Holy Spirit to guide and direct our thoughts and words that it will be of His Will, His Love, His Hope and develop His Faith in us.
God Bless!

 

Andy

"He is the same God and if it is his will for children to be killed then we cannot say this is wrong because that would be a grave mortal sin to pass judgement on God:"

It is never Gods will to kill children. There is natural order, that is based on free will. God can and does intervene in natural order, but because of His Divine Justice, God allows evil things to happen. Every soul needs to be judged and divine rules have been set. Every time God intervenes there must be a balance of prayer and sacrafice. Since the war has been won, through Our Lord Jesus Christ, Divine Justice has a Savior. But to say it is Gods will for Children to be killed is not acceptable.

May Gods Will be Done

 

How can you say it wasn't his will that children be killed when He instructed Joshua to kill everyone and everything in Jericho. What am I missing here?