Last night I was working with a very interesting and likeably lady called Avril. Avril is a grandmother, a very motherly lady, a biker with tatoos which she is very proud to display if asked!! :lol: I guess the the last time Avril darkened a Church door she must have been in diapers, but she is such a sweet kind, generous person, full of wisdom that I can't help wishing a lot of the folks in our Parish were a lot more like her. Anyhow I got talking to Avril about what time she would be going to bed at in the moring, our work is very hard and heavy at nights and you go home pretty well exhausted. Avril told me she would not be sleeping all day and I asked her why. Firstly she is running a neighbour to a DIY store as she has no automobile and promised she would do so. Next she is meeting her daughter and handicapped son and running them to his work a special centre. Then she is waiting in for a friend to call. Her friends husband has Parkinson's disease and needs to talk. Then she has to do the housework and get the food ready... ...........and on and on ..doing things for others. Me I have no one but the dog to look after. It occurs to me from this really wonderful grandmother with the tatoos how wonderful the vocation of marriage is at its best. Its constantly about looking after others, of loving people and looking after them. It just makes me so humble....and reminds me to be on my guard about how selfish my own single life can be. Later after Mass I met a wonderful old nun Sister Therese who wlked over to ask how I was doing after my father died. I mentioned my sister whom my father had not been talking too since she was living unwed to a 'partner' who had himself being married many times. She smiled and said, 'Padraig, you don't change people by walking away from them'. Sister Therese is a lady who just spends herself doing good in the Parish , anywhere there's want our need, you'll find her turning right up on the doorstep. But Therese has no tatoos and does not ride a bike. She goes to Church every day. But the two ladies are so very alike in many ways, spending themsleves in love and caring for others. More for me to think about, much, much more...thank you God for giving me this to pray over.
Your description of Avril reminds me of the old truism that "you can't judge a book by its cover." A lesson that I have learned the hard way many, many times. Perhaps that is why our Lord tells us to avoid being judgmental... to attend to the plank in our own eye before we point out the splinter in another's. I think Sister Therese and Avril have it right-- we must be "do-ers" and leave the judging to Jesus! As my wife and I like to say (borrowing a favorite phrase from the colorful folks in Texas)- "Get 'er done." I think, in great part, that's what Jesus and Our Blessed Mother ask of us-- to pray, fast, and serve -- to "Get 'er Done" spiritually, and to leave the rest up to them!
bflocatholic, I agree! But my wonderful wife Geralyn would agree by example. At her funeral I think they'll be hanging from the rafters because Geralyn always demonstrates love in such personal, practical ways. She's not a holy-roller; she's a holy do-er! Alleluia for the Marthas and the Martos of the world! Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Amen for the Marthas! Coincidentally, today is the feast of St. Martha. I noticed that there are 2 possible Gospel readings- one involving Martha's "doing" (from Luke- "Martha, Martha you are worried and anxious about many things...) and another from the Gospel of John, where Martha recognizes Jesus as the Messiah after her brother Lazarus' death. I had forgotten about that passage. I guess the point is that sometimes the "do-ers" are pretty smart, too!
I think when I meet people like Avril who are not Church goers and yet like such very, very good lovong lives it leaves me so puzzled. Mainly because they live lives, or seem to live lives so far from God and yet with love so very, very close to God. But I suppose its natural to judge people by our own path. A friend form Pakistan , Khan, told me one time that I would go to hell for certain for not believing in the False Prohet Mohamedd or the Q'uran. He siad I was one of the best people he had ever met , but still I would go to hell for being an infidel. I can understand this because if someone like me who is not of Islam the question opens up...well what is the point of following the Islamic path? Its the same for we Catholics, my brother asked me one time if I thought non Catholics would get to heaven? I said I thought all kinds of people would get to heaven, Atheists, Communists, Agnostics, people of all religions, not only this bt that we might get a very, very big surprise at the people who would be really high up there. He was annoyed at this and wondered if there was any point in us obeying Church Laws such as going to Church every Sunday if folks who never bother get to heaven anyway. But I think Saint Augustine said that if we love we fulfill all laws. If we love we go to Church and pray, not because they are laws but because we love and want to be with God. ...the same in Islam, I think. If we obeyed every rule in the Q'uran and did not love it would all be pointless. I think this is the main reason why when Our Lady comes down from heaven she chooses to appear to children and the very little ones. Because such folks having bound themselves by black and white ways of looking at things. That we don't think that people being different from us makes them bad. I recall one time in Amsterdam in the Netherlands being followed round by a smack head all night. He saved my brother from being run over by an automobile and caught his glasses when they fell. He watched over us and warned us were to go and where not to go. Him a complete stranger and out of his head on drugs. Why he did this is a mystery, but I can only say he was more of a practical brother to us than all our fellow Chrisitans in that great city. I find this in myself that I am judging people. then God kicks me up the ass by presenting me with folks like Avril, or the Smack head and pulls down my hose of cards. Thats what the Holy Spirit's job is , puling down our house of cards, to shake us up. (Revelation 7:9,14) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. ...14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation
I heard or read once that it was very important to pray for those in purgatory because there are a lot of protestants stuck there right now because their families do not believe that they need further prayer after death. It brings to mind why its so important to be a Catholic and follow the Catholic path. We will get to heaven following the 10 commandments and being kind but we may get stuck or slowed down along the way as we are all sinners in some way or another. I have gay friend who I am convinced is going to precede me to heaven regardless if I go to confession at the last second of my life- she is such a wonderful person and behaves like Avril and your nun friend. She is so beautiful in how she cares for others. I always look to her for support and comfort and know deep in my heart how much God loves her and wants her with him. I know she will recognize him when she dies (or maybe in the Warning!) and seek him as her savior, even if today she is dusting her house with mint to purify it (sort of a spiritual/witchcraft thing) after she sprinkles it with the Holy water I gave her. ) I try) With such examples of goodness, I've no doubt we all have the ability to get there. The Church just helps us get there quicker and helps us hopefully to not do damage to others on the way and hopefully, help others such as those in purgatory as we pray for them regularly, or in our good deeds for the poor, etc.. I loved what the nun said- that you can't turn your back on your friends and family. Its delicate, but with kind boundaries, you can provide support and love to people that are immersed in sin. I used to work with the homeless- prostitutes, drunks, stoners, meth addicts, pedifiles, etc. It was truly one of the most rewarding jobs I have ever done and I think I left their lives better after spending time with them. They certainly made me a better person. I learned compassion and patience in such a way that I didn't even know I was changing until after several years I looked back and thought "Wow!" Sorry, I'm a babbler today. I was really touchec by this thread though. I worry about my friends but I've come to a point of knowing that my prayers and my presence helps, even if I'm not evangilizing every minute. I have so many non-Catholic friends that I've entrusted to God to care for. I have to trust him. Kath
Kathleen, boy, you sure lay it all out there. You have a rare opportunity to interact and minister to these people, and also to see them in a different way than the rest of us sometimes. We see them for what they are on the outside, but you see a side of them what many others may not get a chance to see, or that we may turn a blind eye to. Its all about that judging-thing again. It is for God alone to do that, but we as human beings have such a hard time with not-judging, don't we? All we are supposed to do is pray for them, but often doing that alone is very hard for us. On the subject of praying for others...I too have often wondered about all the deceased people who are not being prayed for because of a lack of belief in purgatory. But, if I think about this, I think, aren't they? What exactly is prayer? When we ask God to welcome a loved one into his arms in heaven, isn't that a prayer? How about when someone posts an "in memory of" post on facebook for a person, or on the back window of their car, or on a cross by the side of the road. What about when they talk about remembering the fallen soldiers, or any special person? Perhaps the simple words, "May they rest in peace" is actually a prayer that helps them. You know, I think that people instinctively pray for their deceased loved ones, they just don't call it prayer, but it is. How many people think of a loved one, and privately ask God about them or ask God to embrace them, for many times after they are gone? Is that not a prayer? What about when they go to the cemetery and bring flowers or a flag, or otherwise honor the deceased person there? Is that not a sacrifice, an offering, a prayer? What do you all think about this?
] I never underestimate the generosity of God, for He is our Father and He is out of His head, madly in love with us. So if He can find any chance, any chance at all of doing good things for us He will never fail to do them. This goes for love. Love is never wasted it never falls to the ground and withers, because God Himself is love. So, even if our golden love falls towards the ground He will send His angels, if necessary to catch the golden drops and use them, they are never, ever wasted. So too for the souls in purgatory. But I think it, too is a bit like mail, if we don't address it right it might not get their so fast or so well wrapped, or in such good condition. For this reason the Catholic path, being members is like a great Golden straight road to the heart of God. Or if carried through as its supposed to with Faith and Love we get our mail sent right were it should be. I think its like that with the Holy Souls in Purgatory and we can see that with a lot of the Church services now. A lot of the music is from contemporary pop music, the flags of the football teams they supported are on the coffins. There is a lot of gushing sentimental talk about the dead. Sentimental and overly praising and not really realistic or relating to the real life the person led. Relating to al lthe good the person did and not really painting a real picture, building them up to be a false icon. I noticed this at the funeral of some of my relative, especially my brothers and tried to stop this whereever I could by reminding folks of their fallen humanity, for by doing so reminding folks they still need our prayers.... When my brother Cormac, his wife and little baby died I saw them in prayer, at mass standing praying longingly looking towards the tabernacle..and I realised their purgatory was being served out, very kindly and gently standing before the Real Presence till they could sail on over to heaven. I think this kindness is extended to many Catholics who need their pots scrubbed before crossing right on over to heaven. I think one of the things that makes this possible is the fact we offer up masses for the dead, something which our Protestant brothers and sisters, well, just do not do. Also ,as I say a lot of the mail also gets misdirected in a mawkish unrealistic sentimentality and a false understanding of the ture nature of sin and our fallen human nature. Pop music and football flags, for instance sends the mail flying off in real wrong directions...I think the angels pick up what they can and use it, but their poor wings must be really worn out with the effort of it all... ..but as I say its better if our love is sent Special Delivery in directly praying for, offering sacrifice, fasting, penance and most importantyl off all..THE SACRIFICE OF THE MOST HOLY MASS. For in my experience nothing is so inclined to get souls out of Purgatory, especially souls that are really stuck right down there, than the sacrifice of the Holy Mass. it works and the Church teaches us it works and I have seen it work. Other stuff works too, but nothing, just nothing at all works so well...
Padraig, Very insightful, again you paint such a good picture of your thoughts with your words, and then you find the perfect illustration to go with it! Do you know, does the church have any opinion about having a Mass said for a non-Catholic? We have several in my family, starting with my father. When we were in Medjugorje, we signed up not only my Aunt, but my protestent Uncle as well,to have a Mass said. I've been very compelled to pray for both of them, for without them, and especially my Uncle, because he was the financial person, I would never have had the means to go there in the first place. Also, Angels can intercede for us, correct? They themselves can pray for us, as I understand. So can the angels of others. So this means, as you said, the Guardian Angels of those not being prayed for have their work cut out for them indeed...not only to pick up and sort out those "indirect" or "mis-addressed" prayers of those who love and care and remember the deceased one, but also to pray for them themselves, perhaps, to make up for the lack of prayer from people. I think though, that when we praise the good works of a person who has passed, that this is s good prayer. I think that remembering and reflecting upon the good aspects of a person's life, and how he touched lives in a good way would be helpful to them in their journey out of purgatory and on to be with God. If they are in purgatory because they are unworthy, then these reminders of their worth should help them, right? However, I think that when we overdo it, as you mentioned, that this my not be good for our own souls. I would think that the lack of humility falls on the giver of the lavishness, not the deceased person receiving it. This is an interesting subject to ponder!
I pray for those in purgatory a lot, but I agree with Padraig in that the Holy Mass will do so much more than my little prayer. I always look to others to see what they are doing (feeling rather inadequate in my own knowlege of what the church teaches), I wonder that not every mass said is devoted to those souls. Why aren't the priests including prayers for them in the daily/weekly mass? I guess I don't understand why this important piece is not well known and just a daily part of our lives. Does anyone go to a church that regularly prays for the Holy Souls? I don't mean the specific people that are mentioned but just a general prayer to cover all the good people that have gotten stuck said regularly as part of the mass.
In doing a little research on this subject, I found these two links: http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur198.htm In the second link, the part I was interested in is answered in the bottom-third of the page. I want to be able to have Mass said for my father. From what I have found, it appears that this is acceptable. I also found this website: http://www.seraphicmass.org/ as another place to do this. Another little thing, our Parish has always had my dad listed as a member. This always perplexes my mom, when they get mail with both their names on it. I am thinking, there is no reason he cannot belong to a parish as a non-catholic...I mean, not really, is there? After all, he was married to my mom in this Church. Membership does not imply you have received sacraments or anything else. You call, you say you want to be a member, and they put you on their list. He was baptized in the Lutheran faith as a baby. Many members of the parish may have never received their other sacraments either. Many switch parishes, as I have, over the years. Just thinking out loud here.
My husband gets all of our mail too. He is Methodist, and is listed as such but is still a member of the parish, thus our mail comes under his name. I find it encouraging that he feels a part of the church and is not bothered by this at all.
I believe we can pray for the souls of anyone, anyone at all who has died, even say Adolph Hitler of Joe Stalin for we have no idea at all whether or not they are in heaven or hell, in theory their is no reason at all why we could not pray for Judas who betrayed Jesus for the Church teaches us we cannot judge if He is in heaven or hell, though scripture seems to indicate he was damned. I read one saint who said if we pray for a soul who is damned then the suffrages, the good of our prayers are not wasted but are poured out on the soul of the one who needs them most. Which is so reassuring; as I say love, prayer is never, ever wasted. The angels will get it right, even if we get it wrong. At mass of course there is always a part for us to insert our prayers for the souls of the dead. When I was young I used to pray for the souls of my two grandfathers (who were both dead before I was born} and my two grandmothers (who were both very,very good devout ladies, really good). Anyhow when I prayed for my grandmothers and one of my grandfathers I always got a feeling of peace. But praying for one of my grandfathers I always got feeling like God was just shaking His head gently and saying no. When I was a kid I told my mother this and she kinda looked shocked and sad, and I was a little surprised at this for she really a very,very charitable person and not at all inclined to say bad about anyone. But years later, many years later I found out that this grandfather was a bigamist. He aboandoned my grandmother in the greatest poverty. Also my father who was checking the Public Records a couple of years back discovered that this grandfather had been in prison on at least two occasions for beating his other children by other, 'marriages'. Which kind of confirmed what I had seen in prayer. They say that there are seven circles to purgatory and that the bottom level is so bad that it is just like being in hell''only of course with the tremendous reassurance of knowing that we have a , 'Rrelease Date'...so to speak. So bad is it down there that the devils even have permission to attakc the souls down there as they do the poor damned souls. But no matter how far down a soul is they are all Holy Souls for they wil lall get to heaven. Anyhow I have found in prayer I often get these strong, 'Yes' or , 'No' feelings about souls I pray for, especially because I think I love to pray for the souls who might be deepest dwon there and need my help most. I have a great devotion for just praying for the soul that is deepest down in purgatory and most forgotten which I happily recommend to anyone reading this. Well once, many years ago I was reading a very interesting Crime book about American gangsters, full of lurid photos of shootings. I came across one of Albert Anastasia showing him soht dead in a barber shop while getting a shave in New York. Albert was the founder of , 'Murder Incorporated' an organisation of hired assasins {Hit Men} linked to the Mafia and was very ,very feared haing killed, many, many folks himself. 'His ruthless brutality made him legendary and helped him achieve leadership of one of the most powerful families. Anastasia was ambitious and he had become friends with Frank Costello, Al Capone, and Lucky Luciano. When Prohibition ended, his friends, who had begun a national crime syndicate, had another job for Anastasia. He was offered the position of chief of Murder Inc., the syndicate's enforcement arm. This was a service where connected men could come to Albert Anastasia and ask Murder Inc. to take a contract on someone. Anastasia showed a certain ability early on for killing which helped him be promoted to operating head, along with Louis "Lepke" Buchalter, of Murder Inc. They would then assign the hits to one of their top killers.' {You may reall one of the characters in the film, 'The God Father', Lucca Brassi was modelled on Anastasia} Anyhow when I prayed for ALbert I got an immediate and complete, 'No'..it was no good, for where Albert is prayer cannot follow,for there there are no angels and love no longer exists. It was the first time I got such a certain, 'Shake of the head'. But now when I get such an answer I turn to pray for others.
Padraig: When you pay and offering to have a mass said for someone- is that differen than when you add in your own prayers during the mass? I thought that what was asked for in praying for the Holy Souls in purgatory is to have the mass devoted to their souls? Need more info I'm hopelessly lost in details. Kath
Yes Kathleen . Christ's Sacrifice on Calvary is an Eteranl one, since it was God Himself who made this Sacrifice. When the priest says the mass the Sacrifice we reenact this Sacrifce and take the soul as it where under the Cross and bathe it in the Blood of the Lamb, thus cleansing it in Christ's own blood from its sins. Its like when we pray its like offering a poor soul in the desert a glass of ice cold water; when we get a Mass said its like openeing the sluice gates of the Hoover Dam. I find I use it as my heavy artillery and use it most particularly for unquiet souls that come back and to fight demons. You can't beat it:
I probably need to start offering masses to some souls that are still alive. Say a prayer for me if you've time. My soul is heavy today. One of my 'prayees' has fallen to the demons that plague her. I do not know how to pull her out of it. I've no words of wisdom that can win her over to the good. Kath
Turn to our old friend Padre Pio, ask him to help out, recall his word, 'Trust and pray, trust and pray..trust and pray... At the Feet of Mary
Thanks Padraig, I will do that. Oh, by the way. The name Edward came up when I asked my angels name. Seems kind of contemporary for an angel? I'm not sure if I was listening right. What do you think? Kath
As far as I recall at one point Saint Paul tells us we are surrounded by a great heavenly crowd urging us on. At reports from people who are dying who have had near death experiences the Spirits of many people, including those of ancestors ..even distant ancestors materialise as a kind of welcoming party. I tried to look up this passage about being surrounded by a great crowd on every side from the Bible but could not find it, so if anyon else can locate it it would be very welcome. In either case Saint Paul was very,very fond of using analogies from athletica such as, 'Running the race to the finish'. So when he talks of a great crowd he is talking about just as many as you would get in Roman Stadium, which would be quite a few. I wonder maybe if 'Edward' may be one of these rather than an angel? On the other hand I suppose it might be your angel. I always kind of expect that angels have Hebrew names, which, when you inspect them and take them apart having spiritual meaning relationg to their purpose We know from scripture that we too have hidden names relating to our inner spiritual purpose, Saint Elizabeth of the Tinity was very fond of writing about this, I believe she discerned her inner name as , 'To the praise of His Glory' , which is lovely. So too I think you might notice her 'inner name' is mirrored in scripture: “To the Praise of His Glory”. Psalm 111:1-11. Ephesians 1:3-14. So I am inclined to think of the names of angels as being like the lettering on trucks, kind of like, 'It does what it says in the box'...a description of what God made them for...always reflected at some point in Scripture. Which often makes me endlessly supicious of the angel names New Agers come up with like 'Crystal Blue Eyes ' or whatever, which are lovely but pointless. I must try to find the place in Scripture which Bklessed Elizabeth refers..the place about our hidden name.. I think its in Revealtions, it doesn't seem to be my day for finding passages....I am rambling on........... http://www.helpfellowship.org/Blessed_Elizabeth_of_the_Trinity.htm :? I have just noticed that Saint Elizabeths memorial day is my birth day!! Wonderful!!
