we would all be better to read today's Homily by the Holy Father Francis: On the Good Shepherd "On this Sunday let us pray for the Shepherds of the Church" Zenit.org) Here is the translation of the Holy Father's address before and after the recitation of the Angelus today to the faithful gathered in St. Peter's Square. Dear brothers and sisters, hello! On this fourth Sunday of the Easter season. John the Evangelist presents to us the image of Jesus the Good Shepherd. Contemplating this passage of the Gospel, we can understand what type of relationship Jesus had with this disciples: a relationship based on tenderness, on love, on mutual knowledge and on the promise of a gift that is beyond measure: “I have come,” says Jesus “that they might have life and have it in abundance.” (John 10:10). Such a relationship is the model of relationships among Christians and of human relations. Today too, as in Jesus’ time, many people propose themselves as “shepherds” of our lives; but only the Risen One is the true Shepherd, who gives us life in abundance. I invite everyone to have faith in the Lord who guides us. But he does not only guide us, he accompanies us, he journeys with us. Let us listen with a mind and heart open to his Word to nourish our faith, enlighten our conscience and follow the teachings of the Gospel. On this Sunday let us pray for the Shepherds of the Church, for all bishops, including the Bishop, for all priests, for all of them! In particular let us pray for the new priests of the Diocese of Rome, whom I ordained earlier today in the Basilica of St. Peter. Greetings to these 13 priests! May the Lord help us shepherds always to be faithful to the Master and wise and enlightened guides of the people of God entrusted to us. I als ask you, please, help us to be good pastors. Once I read something beautiful about how the people of God help bishops and priests be good shepherds. It is a text of St. Caesarius of Arles, a father of the first centuries of the Church. He explains how the people of God must help the shepherd and gave the following example. When the calf is hungry, he does to the cow, to the mother, to get milk. The cow, however, does not immediately give it to him: it seems that she is keeping it for herself. And what does the calf do? He knocks against the cow’s udder with his head so that the milk comes out. It is a beautiful image! “So you too,” the saint says, “must be like this with the shepherds. Always knock at their door, at their heart, so that they give you the milk of doctrine, the milk of grace and the milk of leadership.” And I ask you, please, to importune the shepherds, to disturb them, all of us shepherds, so that we can give you the milk of grace, of doctrine and of leadership. Importune [us]! Think of that beautiful image of that calf, how he importunes the mother so that she gives him something to eat. In imitation of Jesus, every Shepherd “will sometimes go before his people, pointing the way and keeping their hope vibrant. At other times, he will simply be in their midst with his unassuming and merciful presence. At yet other times, he will have to walk after them, helping those who lag behind” (“Evangelii gaudium,” 31). May all shepherds be like this! But you must importune the shepherds, so that they give you the guide of doctrine and grace. This Sunday is the World Day of Prayer for Vocations. In this year’s message I noted that “every vocation requires in each case an exodus out of ourselves to center our existence on Christ and his Gospel” (2). This is why the call to follow Jesus is both thrilling and demanding. Its realization always requires that we enter into deep friendship with the Lord so that we are able to live from him and for him. Let us pray that in this time many young people hear the Lord’s voice, a voice that is always threatened with being drowned out by many other voices. Let us pray for young people. Perhaps here in the piazza there is someone who hears this voice of the Lord calling him to the priesthood. Let us pray for him, if he is here, and for all young people who are called. [Following the recitation of the Regina Caeli, the Holy Father again addressed those present in St. Peter’s Square:] Dear brothers and sisters, I greet all of you, families, parish groups, associations and individual faithful from Italy and many other countries, especially those from the Diocese of Campo Grande and Dourados (Brazil), New York, Las Palmas (Canary Islands), and the students from Miranda Do Corvo, Portugal and the young people of the Heart of Mary school from Alta Cordoba, Argentina. I greet the Neocatechumenal Community that during these Sundays of the Easter season take the announcement of the risen Jesus to 100 piazzas in Rome and to many other cities of the world. May the Lord give you the joy of the Gospel! And go forward, you, who are good! I give a special blessing for children and young people who received or are about to receive First Communion or Confirmation. I also give a special blessing to the relatives and friends of the new priests of the Diocese of Rome whom I ordained this morning. I greet the State Forest Corps, who are organizing the national celebration of natural preserves; the members of “Giovane Montagna,” who arrived in Rome by way of the Via Francigena; the Italian Network for Cures and Support in Oncology, encouraging their work with sick people and their relatives; the Civil Protection group of Viggiù-Clivio; and the motorcyclists of San Marino and Abruzzo. And today I invite you to remember and say a pray for mothers. Let us salute mothers! Entrusting them to the mother of Jesus, let us pray to Our Lady for our mothers and for all mothers. “Hail Mary... .” A big salute to mothers, a big salute! Have a good Sunday, everyone! Have a good lunch and goodbye! [Translation by Joseph Trabbic] (May 11, 2014) © Innovative Media Inc.
"What is Truth?" This questioned raised here was also raised some 2000+'years ago. Perhaps some food for thought in this link: http://acatholicthinker.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/what-is-truth/
I'm addressing the worry that some have in the Church today that Pope Francis is somehow not a valid Pope (which, of course, he is.) Because of the protection of infallibility, if a pope, while teaching ex cathedra, proclaims that the eucharist is only a symbol, this would mean he was not a pope at all, but had obtained the chair of Peter invalidly. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, not "what we personally consider established Tradition/Doctrine." Any Pope, or any Catholic priest for that matter, who denies the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is a tool of the enemy and has fallen into diabolical deception. And it is not above the pay grade of the simplest Catholic in the pew who was prepared properly for their first communion to discern that!
And yet you seem to want to reserve the right to say that he wouldnt be if he, in your judgement, formally denied the Real Presence ? This approach could only be an airtight argument if the following questionable assumptions also held: 1. You yourself know better what such a Pope means when he speaks about the Eucharist (or remarriage and communion for that matter). Obviously a false Pope would only get to his office by making falsity look like truth so hes not going to bluntly say "I revoke the doctrine of the Real Presence." 2. The charism of Papal infallibility must be true despite all evidence to the contrary. (I mean if you think you can know better what the Pope means than he himself, or he must be invalidly elected even if you have no evidence of this...then why not impugn Papal infallibility as well. The denial of observable reality that each of these stances demands is not very different). 3. Despite the fact that the validity of his Papacy has never been raised, and there is no evidence of same, you would nevertheless have to conclude that it is invalid ( and that if we look hard enough we will find the defect). Well I think this view has serious consistancy speed wobbles. At best this example is no more meaningful than thinking one can answer the impossible scenario of what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object. I see much likelihood of hubris behind any "I know when even a Pope goes off the doctrinal rails" approach
I think I understand the point you are making, BH. I believe that Kathy is using Verne's messages as a 'background' to her comments. I do find Verne's messages excellent as a kind of compact guide to understanding the current difficulties in the Church. As I have posted elsewhere, Verne gives repeated guidance to follow the Pope under virtually all circumstances, yet, to my initial concern, the messages do eventually refer to an anti-pope that we must not follow. The relevant passages are: The day will come when a false antipope will try and lead my church. If you are in a state of rebellion against my church now, will you even recognize a false pope? The complete fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel of the abomination of desolation will occur: when the continual sacrifice of the mass is abolished by the false prophet and the anitchrist. Acceptance of the protestant doctrine of the mass by an antipope will be the fulfillment of the prophecy. The crucial point is that Verne does seem to indicate that someone will present himself as the Pope but who, for some reason, is not a valid one and that he will, somehow, change the Holy Mass in such a way that it ceases to be a valid Mass. We can wonder, how can this possibly occur? The only satisfactory answer I can come up with at the moment is that this event will only take place after the Warning. After the Warning, everyone in the world will know God exists and will not be able to hide from the fact. Yet many will not repent and that includes many who may well be in the Church and in the top echelons of it. And then who knows what might happen... It is clear that Verne's messages, when they speak of an anti-pope, are speaking of the future but they indicate that if we are faithful to the Church we will recognise what is happening when changes are made to the Holy Mass.
These are such difficult time. Sometimes I think the only thing I am sure of is that I am no longer sure. But God is only ever a prayer away to give light and counsel and when God is near the truth is never far behind. I have been thinking that St Paul shed some light on this when he reminds us that the spiritual man judges all things spiritually. 1 Corinthians 2:15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, I think this scripture can be applied so well to our Catholic approach to the Papacy. Either we approach it spiritually seeing the Pope as given to us as a gift from god, a Spiritual Father to rule and guide us, or we can see him as people like Martin Luther did in a human way, viewing the Pope as simply a human figure, like a President or a King. The reason why we differ from Luther in our approach is simply that we pray. Prayer makes all the difference between the human and the spiritual. It is just as simple as this. When we do not pray we loose peace and patience, we wander about in circles and become lost. We loose our spiritual vision. If times are difficult at present I believe they will become even more complex and confusing in the future. So if we need to pray much now we will need to pray even more in the times to come. For yes, I do believe false teachers are on the way. But with God beside us who can be against us? From my own prayers I heard Mary telling me not to worry, that when that time comes all will be made clear. So I do trust, I do not fear. God is always just a prayer away and Mary holds my hand. I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist. ... There are many that think I am too fierce against Popedom; on the contrary, I complain that I am, alas! too mild; I wish I could breathe out lightning against pope and Popedom, and that every word were a thunderbolt. Martin Luther.
Can someone please link to the messages by Verne? I hadn't heard of them and can't seem to find an up to date page. I would have to say, without having seen what he says, that we should not put too much credence into alleged messages. There are so many swirling around at the moment. I used to believe a number of them although (usually) I have inevitably been disillusioned. We live in disturbing times, it's natural that God's people will look for interpretation and guidance. As to the Pope - he's still new, IMO, and finding that being Pope is not at all like being a Cardinal. He says some holy and wonderful things - and yet I am perplexed by some of the acts, such as the restrictions on the FIs. OTOH, I do think the real Francis is ignored by the media: they go on about his supposed desire for 'change' and ignore his comments about satan. For those of us who adored the last two Popes, any successor will take some getting used to. Agree with the poster who said we must pray for the Pope very hard. He's asked for our prayers and needs them. Oh, and he's a Marian pope, so we can entrust him to Our Lady.
You've lost me a bit with the "Verne" thing. I do not know who "Verne" is or what contribution of his you are referring to - have I missed something? As you say I think the crucial thing wrt a "false Pope" is that such a person is one who is not validly elected or whose election was somehow ambiguous from the getgo (eg there may be more than one "Pope" competing for the title as has happened in the past). To say that a validly elected Pope can later invalidate his office (a "false Pope"), allegedly through formal doctrinal error, is essentially to deny the charism given by Christ to the successor of Peter. To say that a Pope can at some later time show himself (by formal doctrinal error) to have been invalidly elected from the start would make a bit more sense. But we would first have to rule out the more likely possibility of sinful hubris on the part of the nay-sayers. Christian wisdom/charity (to say nothing of first assuming the presence of the Pope's charism if evidence is not clear wrt alleged doctrinal error) would demand objective evidence of his invalid election. If that wasn't averted to by the later nay-sayers at the time of his election before they fell out with the Pope over his alleged errors ... then I suggest it is not the Pope who is in error. All things being equal it is the People and Cardinals (however few) in union with the Pope who correctly understand/perceive true doctrine, not the other way around. It is not good enough to simply say "we believe he has now fallen into doctrinal error therefore this itself is proof he was invalidly elected." To do so is an "apriori" mistake in thinking. Its like lifting oneself up by one's own bootstraps - making past reality conform to later "reason" rather than the other way around. This way of thinking is rationalism not right reason. There is absolutely no doubt that the current Pope is validly elected. If he appears to me to finally teach that Holy Communion can be regularly received by some of the remarried (without Annulment) I will accept that with a docile heart even if I think this is a change in Doctrine that Christ never sanctioned. And I am sure God will love me (and others) all the more for bowing our intellectual pride. Anything else is the final death of Catholicism. Sure, many may leave the Church. That may not be a bad thing. It isn't a numbers game - the visible Church is probably official home to a greater percentage of commandment-keeping sinners (ie Pharisees) today than is usually the case in history. Its debatable how big or pure the visible Church needs to be to do its leavening job of touching sinners in the world. Do we hold them close or far. Experience varies over the centuries. As Cardinal Kasper (and others) say, "Holy Communion is not a prize for the well-behaved."
Thanks Kathy and Padraig for your link - I had found it but was confused (still am). The site purports to be a vehicle for the prophecies of Cletus Schiffers (who?). I can't find mention of a Verne. My bad?
It is not hubris at all to know that the Catholic Church without the Real Presence is no longer the Catholic Church.
Yes, I found the situation with Verne's messages rather confusing. The PDF file of all the Verne's messages (but which includes some earlier spiritual guidance from Cletus Schefers) can be downloaded from: http://www.godspeakswillyoulisten.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/godspeakswillyoulisten.pdf The Verne messages begin from page 12 of the above file. Cletus is no longer alive but Verne has made some contributions to this forum. I found Verne a very humble soul and his messages to be on a much higher 'literary' level than he seemed personally capable of. I recommend reading them. I found their closeness to Scripture, with continual Scriptural references, impressive.
I believe we have one of the greatest popes currently. Sure he may sin and make mistakes but he is human. His infallability concerns matters of faith only. No one has enough information to judge as God does or understand as He does. I believe this antipope that takes the pope's seat in the future (not elected) it will be pretty clear to those in a state of grace right from the get go. God isn't going to allow a pope to lead the flock for years in error since he commanded we follow him. But he did warn of the church going through a final trial which will cause many to leave. Staying with and supporting the Roman Catholic church is what we are called to do by Christ Himself. Francis's approach of keeping the door open to all, even just to converse is a great one. This is exactly what Jesus did. You can't have influence on people you refuse to even talk with. Saving souls is the priority and never giving up on a soul is also what God asks. I tend to judge people, really trying to work on that. As for divorced getting communion......I support and trust the pope's call on this. Jesus did make it clear once married you can't get divorvced but prehaps if a person after spiritual growth asks forgivness for this sin they can be worthy of communion?? Because the sin of divorce from a catholic marriage is an "open" sin every one sees and knows of it. Of course getting remarried not catholic it would be harder to back this. But so many grave sins are hidden yet these people still partake in communion and can't be stopped. Only God truely knows a person's soul. We are asked not to accept communion in a state of mortal sin so the priest very well has the right to not give it if he knows for sure.....he in lies the challange of it all. Not all sins can be seen from the outside.
I see an interesting parallel between the Pope's actions and his words("who am I to judge") and today's first reading at Mass. Here we have the early Christians- all mainly converted Jews being told to change their dietary laws and their law regarding circumcision. Peter is told by God in a vision that God makes all things clean and Peter says who is he to "hinder" God. Now I don't think Francis had had a vision, although who knows, but he is as the validly elected Vicar of Christ acting with same charism as Peter did back when the Church was first formed. "The Apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles too had accepted the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem the circumcised believers confronted him, saying, ‘You entered the house of uncircumcised people and ate with them.” Peter began and explained it to them step by step, saying, “I was at prayer in the city of Joppa when in a trance I had a vision, something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered from the sky by its four corners, and it came to me. Looking intently into it, I observed and saw the four-legged animals of the earth, the wild beasts, the reptiles, and the birds of the sky. I also heard a voice say to me, ‘Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.’ But I said, ‘Certainly not, sir, because nothing profane or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ But a second time a voice from heaven answered, ‘What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.’ This happened three times, and then everything was drawn up again into the sky. Just then three men appeared at the house where we were, who had been sent to me from Caesarea. The Spirit told me to accompany them without discriminating. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house. He related to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, saying, ‘Send someone to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter, who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning, and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, ‘John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, “God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too.”
And guess what's not in the Bible? The apostles did not gather up the prospective converts and say, "Gather round, so we can tell you what a mess Peter is making of things!" Who would want to join an outfit like that???
I recommend not reading them (as anything special). Verne's personal reflections are no more inspired than a Sunday homily (and probably better than 80% of them). I found "Jesus" allegedly quoting chapter and verse from the Bible and sometimes making amateurish use of philosophic terms like "relativism" more Vern-ian than Christ-ian .
I haven't read all of them but the ones I read are really interesting and sound authentic to me anyway.
Sometimes we have to cut visionaries a bit of slack for as St Paul said, 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. We are all clay jars and all of us a little bit cracked, even the best of us. ..and... Romans 3:23 ....for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, View attachment 1948
In these times, which even the authentic visionaries of the past identified with a proliferation of false prophecies/visions, we probably need to toughen up even more. 98% of self-proclaimed seers and prophets are readily identified (as well-intentioned but misguided, spiritually proud, narcissistic attention seekers or downright of the evil) - if we are wise enough to take a disciplined stance of prudential doubt until otherwise warranted. Surely those of us sensitive to mysticism and pained by the empty materialism of the world need esp to guard our natural credulity and curiosity re things spiritual in these times. Should we not prefer the plain taste of solid fare (established revelation/doctrine and Christian practice) instead of searching for the sweetness of the latest prophecy or vision of which there are many. It has always been so and even more so in these days of the Internet - when the usual large numbers of the misguided can no longer be cut off at the knees by local parish priests before going public. "Beware of false prophets!" (Matthew 7:15) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits ... many false prophets are gone out into the world " ( 1 John 4:1 )
