Milleniarism, postmillenialism, premillenialism, amillenialism and Catholic Cathechism

I wish you'd answer Mark's last question Stephen. We are all waiting on pins and needles...

 

nah. they are a bit astounded about Lactanius so there is not going to be any response for some time.

Then there is going to be a list of semi-finished quotes out of context to prove nobody knows what

half of the quotes will turn out to be meaningless upon vetting, but in two pages the game can be started again

 

I would contend to agree with DW's words here.

 

Marti do you have the names the wrong way round?

 

This conversation is more like Jeopardy and the final question.

 

Mark,
youve got 2 minutes from now before I retire to bed. Its a simple yes or no answer-and you know we are all here waiting

 

Stephen, please provide the quote from the Holy Father that speaks of the Anti-christ present just prior to the Final Judgement. I must have missed that quote.

 

n his Second Letter to the Thessalonians, Paul changes his perspective. He speaks of the negative incidents that must precede the final and conclusive event. We must not let ourselves be deceived, he says, to think that, according to chronological calculations, the day of the Lord is truly imminent: "On the question of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we beg you, brothers, not to be so easily agitated or terrified, whether by an oracular utterance, or rumor, or a letter alleged to be ours, into believing that the day of the Lord is here. Let no one seduce you, no matter how" (2: 1-3). The continuation of this text announces that before the Lord's arrival there will be apostasy, and one well described as the "man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition" (2: 3) must be revealed, who tradition would come to call the Antichrist

 

General Audience 12 Nov 2008
Also it explicit in the CCC he forms the final persecution before the Last Judgment.

 

Well everyone,
Its been great fun in all honesty.
God Bless you all.
I just cant stay up any longer!

 

And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[3] A revolt: This revolt, or falling off, is generally understood, by the ancient fathers, of a revolt from the Roman empire, which was first to be destroyed, before the coming of Antichrist. It may, perhaps, be understood also of a revolt of many nations from the Catholic Church; which has, in part, happened already, by means of Mahomet, Luther, &c., and it may be supposed, will be more general in the days of the Antichrist.
[3] The man of sin: Here must be meant some particular man, as is evident from the frequent repetition of the Greek article: 'the man of sin, 'the son of perdition, 'the adversary or opposer. It agrees to the wicked and great Antichrist, who will come before the end of the world.

 

SLEEP WELL!

 

thank you....this is fabulous reading. You guys are so amazing. I am enjoying this wealth of knowledge and Spirit.....

 

Hi Stephen,

My spiritual director called. My kids are waiting for me for supper. Sorry.

 

Fr. Joseph actually addresses the issues surrounding Lactantius. Worth a read. I mean, many feel that all the Church Fathers were practically millenarnianists. New theology, as has been explained here several times, shows that this was not the case.

 

some where, some weren't. this one particular was.

 

anyway, it's getting late here as well. Goodnight everyone - chilaists, millennialists and amillennialists

 

Yes, of course.

However, a study of the Apostolic Fathers on the antichrist, which is part of our Sacred Tradition, shows that they held varying views on the Antichrist. I already quoted them above. Clement, for instance, taught that "they shall all go out who do not belong to Christ, but to that last Antichrist." I quoted other Church Fathers who placed him before the era of peace. Others taught that a false prophet would come first before the era, and that afterward, the Antichrist would arrive. Both positions are actually congruent with Scripture which shows a "beast and false prophet" before the reign of peace, and "Gog and Magog" after. So, there is no clear consensus here. Thus, we should fully adhere to Pope Benedict in this regard (of course):

As far as the antichrist is concerned, we have seen that in the New Testament he always assumes the lineaments of contemporary history. He cannot be restricted to any single individual. One and the same he wears many masks in each generation. —Cardinal Ratzinger (POPE BENEDICT XVI), Dogmatic Theology, Eschatology 9, Johann Auer and Joseph Ratzinger, 1988, p. 199-200; cf (1 Jn 2:18; 4:3) ​

In my book and on my website, I have presented this very theology showing the rise of these antichrists before and after the era of peace without drawing any conclusions other than to present the Fathers teachings. We might be tempted to say, why on earth would God do it this way? But then, why did he permit Nero, Stalin, PolPot, Hitler, Mao..... I guess this is why the Church describes this as the "mystery of iniquity."

 

What does this mean, "before the Last Judgment"? Again Stephen, there are varying theologies of what the "last day" is. This is why I have encouraged you not to also reject them (the Apostlic Fathers), which would be as untenable as me rejecting the pope's authority on the Antichrist (which I just answered in the previous post). The pope said:

Let us now devote our attention to the Apostolic Fathers; that is, to the first and second generations in the Church subsequent to the Apostles. And thus, we can see where the Church's journey begins in history. —POPE BENEDICT XVI, General Audience, March 7th, 2007​

If we are Catholics, then we are bound to "devote our attention" to Apostolic Tradition. "Do you or do you not?", as you put it. And if you say yes, then due diligence must be given to the theology of the Eastern Church and new theology in the West that sheds new light and understanding on their eschatology. It's a little late for your book, but so what.

The "end times" and how they unfold are still very much enshrouded in mystery.

 

The topic of the Antichrist is better suited to its own thread.

The Church teaches that there will be a final, endtime Antichrist while also affirming that there have been many antichrists throughout the ages.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the above reference to Lactantius, the thousand years and the Antichrist.


Lactantius's writings simply echo the chronology of Revelation Chapters 19-20, which place the Millennium between the defeat of the False Prophet and Gog. The chronology per the Book of Revelation, chapters 19-20 is:

1. Defeat of False Prophet and his armies
2. The Millennium
3. Defeat of Gog-Magog
4. Last Judgement

insearch, in your discussion of Lactantius above you imply that he believed the thousand years to be literal. Where does Lactantius state this? Or is this just your opinion?

Actually, Lactantius interpreted the thousand years in the same manner as the author of the Book of Psalm, writing the following in The Divine Institutes:

​

"For the great Day of the Lord is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says: 'In thy sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day..."​

Lactantius uses the term "thousand years" in the EXACT same sense that the author of the Book of Revelation uses the term "thousand years". It is you who have added a meaning to Lactantius writings that is not present in them.

Also, regarding the resurrections of the rigtheous during the Millennium: this does not refer to the resurrection that take place at the Last Judgement. The lives and accounts of the Saints testify to the fact that there have been many, many public resurrections since the time of Christ. During the Middle Ages these types of miracles were more common. Let's not rule them out now or in the future just because our present age has apostatized and believes miracles to be synonymous with "fairies in the garden" (as Richard Dawkins would put it).