Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

We are to obey in all things but sin. I sense you know this, Thomas21, but just for the sake of hearing yourself argue.......

 

Sigh, already Catholic commentators are saying “Pope can forbid TLM”

Benedict said that popes have no right to do that.

People were outraged for a little while, and now it’s normalized as a-okay. Just like the rest of it. I don’t know how the Church deals with heretical popes.That never happened in 2000 years. Which is why I can’t say he’s definitely a false shepherd. Not arguing for the sake of it.

My point is, were he to indeed be a false shepherd would God praise you for obedience or chastise you for doing what’s wrong simply because you were told to? Is it obedience to stop Latin mass, or is it wrong even if you think it’s obedience?

Won’t post on this again.

 

If you truly don't know 100% that what the pope is asking you to do is wrong, you should always err on the side of obedience. God will NOT fault you for obedience to the pope unless you KNOW what he is commanding is a sin.

When the pope silenced Padre Pio and wouldn't allow him to hold public Masses or hear confessions, all because of people's slander against him, did Padre Pio humbly obey? Or did he claim the pope had no right to keep him from doing something good for the people? Did he even grudgingly obey, while bad-mouthing the pope for his lack of sound judgment? Are we wiser than Padre Pio?

 

I beg your pardon. I did not attack Thomas. He keeps repeating himself. I was not including you in this. Talk about attacks, calling my post nonsense. Kindly stop doing this to me. This was none of your business. We have been giving Thomas rational responses all along. Maybe you did not know that, or maybe you didn't agree with what I said. At any rate, kindly back off.

 

Brian, answer him yourself. Leave me out of it. That was all you had to do in the first place.

 

95%, maybe 90% follow the church teachings, I would go to all of those Fatima vigils. The priests and parishioners were more gung go than I was probably. I could probably go as low as 80% but that is still a big majority.

I will say, for example, you have Jesuits, I think they may have liberal values. There are some liberal-type orders.

St. Vincent Dr Paul, I think a few years ago a pro-life exhibit was vandalized at De Paul university in Illinois but I do think these are exceptions.

https://www.thefire.org/cases/depau...hed-for-exposing-vandals-of-pro-life-display/

Catholic U, so of course these things happen.

 

I think I heard that the Catholic Thing, popular website is going to merge or is being bought up by Crisis magazine.

I enjoy that "Catholic Thing" website but let's not forget the total picture, I thought Crisis mag was pretty good but here is a curious article.

CATHOLICISM, FACT CHECK
CRISIS MAGAZINE VEERS HARD INTO ANTI CATHOLICISM
APRIL 1, 2020 STAFF


Although Crisis Magazine is relatively obscure, there are many who use the name “Catholic” in their blogs who love to refer to it. So, their often uninformed opinion is treated as some how correct. This can be very damaging, especially when they put out information that is wrong.

The Editor in Chief of Crisis Magazine, Michael Davis, recently posted a blog post titled innocently as “In Defense of Saint Corona,” but it was filled with a lot of ideas that directly contradict the very fabric of Christianity.

His central premise was to complain that Snopes debunked a recent claim that St. Stephanie, aka St. Corona (Stephanie means crown, as does Corona in Latin), was the patroness of plagues. We explained how such a lie goes against the Catholic Catechism’s teachings on the Eighth Commandment. But such a trivial thing as central Catholic teachings doesn’t matter, it seems:

Crisis Magazine Veers Hard Into Anti Catholicism | The News and Times Politics
​

And here is that Crisis magazine's website: Crisis Magazine - A Voice for the Faithful Catholic Laity

So, a rational discussion is needed.

 

One Peter Five is another good traditionalist source.

Some Questions on Traditionis Custodes - OnePeterFive

As the initial reactions to Pope Francis’ Traditionis Custodes continue to pour in, I wish to join my voice with others in analyzing and responding to this document. But I cannot, at least not yet. It is not that the document is free from any legitimate criticism, but that it is of such a disturbing nature that I am not sure where the criticism could even begin. ​

Again, probably just best to leave it at that, those interested can read on, same for the First things blog:

Mass and Memory | Martin Mosebach | First Things

In Traditionis Custodes, Pope Francis has given a command. He does this at a time when papal authority is unraveling as never before. The Church has long since advanced to an ungovernable stage. But the pope battles on. He abandons his dearest principles—“listening,” “tenderness,” “mercy”—that refuse to judge or give orders. Pope Francis is roused by something that troubles him: the tradition of the Church.

The limited breathing room that the pope's predecessors granted to liturgical tradition is no longer occupied only by senile nostalgics. The Traditional Latin Mass also attracts young people, who have discovered and learned to love the “buried treasure in the field,” as Pope Benedict called the old liturgy. In Pope Francis’s eyes, this is so serious that it must be suppressed.
​

And then, that EWTN discussion, well, I think they are saying we are seeing the good things in the church quashed, that maybe we are even heading towards Ecumenism. Just like the break up of the Lutheran Church, it seems in my own words, the church is being defanged some from what really makes our church different from the others, I think that is in the EWTN discussion as well.



IMHO, probably the best analysis of all of this.

 

I go to both TLM and NOM. I've been a daily Mass Catholic all my life. When I discovered the beauty and riches of Catholic Tradition, some 10 years ago, after Summorum Pontificum, I instantly fell in love with it. The prayers in the Traditional Mass are so beautiful! I can only imagine that they are very powerful as well.

Fr. Ripperger, who was with the FSSP until recently, has an interesting article called "The Merit of a Mass". Citing many pre-Vatican II sources, Father argues that it is possible the TLM glorifies God more than the NOM. Both the TLM and the NOM are undoubtedly valid Masses, there have been Eucharistic Miracles at both, and the Words of Consecration are the same except "Mysterium Fidei" (Mystery of Faith), which theologians agree is not essential to validity. But validity is not the only important thing. Every valid Mass and Communion will always obtain and confer Grace ex opere operato, but when the liturgical prayers are more detailed and profound, the graces called down on the people will be more. Dr. Scott Hahn also holds a similar view on the Latin Mass as Fr. Ripperger.

"The Church not only offers the Sacrifice, but she moreover unites with its offering various prayers and ceremonies. The sacrificial rites are carried out in the name of the Church and, therefore, powerfully move God to impart His favors and extend His bounty to the living and the dead. By reason of the variety of the formulas of the Mass, the impetratory efficacy of the Sacrifice can be increased in an accidental way, and the efficacy be directed in a special manner to different objects. – The sacrificial fruit to be obtained by petition, through the mediation of the Church, is neither as to kind nor degree previously determined and limited. Therefore, the Church herself in her prayers is accustomed so to express her intentions and desires, that it can be known what benefits she wishes to obtain by the Mass and to whom she wills to apply them. Hence special prayers are more useful and more beneficial than general ones. Not only the degree of holiness of the Church, but also the nature of the prayers of the Mass and even of its whole rite exerts accordingly an influence upon the measure and nature of the fruits of the Sacrifice.

From what has been said there follow several interesting consequences. Among others, that, on the part of the Church, a High Mass solemnly celebrated has greater value and efficacy than merely a low Mass; – and also with regard to the Church’s impetratory power a Votive or a Requiem Mass for a special intention is more valuable and efficacious than a Mass harmonizing with the Office of the day. At a Solemn High Mass the external display is richer and more brilliant than at a low Mass; for at a solemn celebration the Church, in order to elevate the dignity of the Sacrifice, manifests greater pomp, and God is more glorified thereby.43"

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit of the Mass (Fr. Ripperger, F.S.S.P.).pdf Fr. Ripperger concludes his above study saying in the same way, the TLM has greater "fruits of the Mass" or "extrinsic value" than an NOM, although both undoubtedly are valid Holy Sacrifices of the Mass.

Anyway, all that said, what is very important is to receive Holy Communion frequently, and daily if possible. The Holy Eucharist is the Bond of Charity in the Church. We are mystically made One Body in Christ because we all partake of Christ's Eucharistic Body and Blood, as St. Paul says. So, while the debates on integral Liturgy go on (and they are important), let us make sure we are daily nourished with our Daily Bread, the Bread of Life, and receive Our Lord frequently and reverently, kneeling if possible. Then all will be well.

Here is Dr. Hahn:

 

I was listening to Documentary on Archbishop Leverbre last night. Apparently his seminary in Econne , Switzerland had an Apostolic Visitation from two senior Vatican clerics who in conversation with seminarians cast serious doubts on the physical Resurrection of Christ.

There was a time I would not have believed such a thing but not now.

As to the Archbishop himself I strongly believe that if he had gone into Schism he would have been canonised by now. He really was a very, very holy man indeed.

So interesting listening to this. My parents used to idolise him. I would tend to think of Obedience to Rome as everything. But I don't judge him. I do believe he was a saint and there were so many strange goings on back then. Even more strange things going on at present.

I just don't know anymore.

 

I remember once doing a course on Catholic theology about 1986 to get a certificate in order to teach in Catholic schools.

Novel theology is a polite way of describing it.

There is no doubt we live in apostate times - those who hold the faith within the faith are a real minority.

Bible believing protestants are closer to the faith than many of the theologians in Catholic circles who deny basic doctrines like the resurrection, hell etc

 

As the discussion between the validity of the TLM and the NOM go on, let us be on guard it does not embitter and confuse our faith.
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:16

And Peter quoted Leviticus 11:44-45, Gods command for His people to be holy.

‘Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”1 Peter 1:13-16

 

this was wonderful....thank you!

 

Malachi Martin always maintained that he brilliantly set up a counterforce against the modernists--a fish bone they couldn't swallow and couldn't cough up--looks like the current modernists are trying brutally to cough it up.

 

The New Theology is so clever there can be no doubt that it comes from the very pits of Hell itself. It is really the product of a very, very brilliant intelligence. It appeals to personal intellectual pride and that explains why it is everywhere.

I believe the Great certain antidote is Devotion to Our Blessed Lady and to saying the Daily Rosary.

Such a simple thing but it is the perfect vaccine and antidote.

God with this Signal Weapon does indeed confound the proud of heart.

 

What is sin?
Here is a definition
In a religious context, sin is a transgression against divine law.[1] Each culture has its own interpretation of what it means to commit a sin. While sins are generally considered actions, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, selfish, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".[2]

 

That is exactly right! That’s why Padre Pio said, “the rosary is the weapon for these times.”
One of the promises is that the recitation of the rosary will confound heresy.