Pope Francis supports gay civil unions

Some people are just blind. Of course PF holds the same beliefs as all his apostate Jesuits/friends. Wake up!!!

 

So much confusion...another sign of the times.

I'm Italian and speak it perfectly; Italian and spanish are very similar.
"Convivenza" means living together- thus living in common-law

"Coesistenza" means coexistence.

I listened to the recording and to my great disappointment he said "Convivenza civile" which means living in common law. If he had said coesistenza ..it would be quite different ..but that's not the case.

So much confusion has been caused by this both in our Church and world wide.

Todays gospel fits perfectly into what is happening.

LUKE 12:49-53
"I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

Division..even in our families...there are those who at the news yesterday rejoiced because they think this is good and loving..

Again, in a message the Blessed Virgin said what will be bad will look good and what is good will look bad.

So as we speak to those around us about this, we , those who stick to the true magesterium of the church, will seem to be those who are in the wrong...so much confusion.

St. John Paul II pray for us.

 

Cardinal Burke's words put this all in perspective..

"First of all, the context and the occasion of such declarations make them devoid of any magisterial weight. They are rightly interpreted as simple private opinions of the person who made them. These declarations do not bind, in any manner, the consciences of the faithful who are rather obliged to adhere with religious submission to what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and the ordinary Magisterium of the Church teach on the matter in question. In particular, the following are to be noted."

The Pope may say the Chicago Cubs are the best team in baseball....A personal opinion we do not have to agree

 

Father Hunwicke makes a salient point in his blog today. He says the rot set in with the failure of most of our bishops to properly support Humanae Vitae. The essence of this hugely significant document is that sex cannot be divorced from reproduction. Artificial contraception caused this split of the pleasure of sex from the miracle of creating new life. Father Hunwicke perceptively notes that by not convincingly taking on the contraceptors, most particularly married couples, engaging in barren sex, it makes a Catholic stance against homosexuals engaging in sodomitic barren sex appear to the secularists as discriminatory. The married couple taking the pleasure from a sexual act intended not to produce life are playing a similar game to two homosexuals indulging themselves. The homosexual act might have the added problem of contradicting Natural Law, but such a nuance is meaningless to the secular mindset. In both cases, the sin is mortal.

Therefore, we are reaping the whirlwind of decades of negligence and error. It isn't all down to Pope Francis, but he is certainly the first pope to contradict Catholic teaching. The reversal of so many decades of such profound error seems beyond man's ability to achieve. God's Wrath may have to sort this out. May He have mercy on us all.

 

Um, the man known as pope Francis proved he is not the pope, I was so fixated by the possible abomination of desolation (false mass) it took me till now to realize what just happened.

Did pope Francis just speak heresy? Did he know what the true teaching was? Did he mean what he said? ‘Yes’ to all 3 fits the definition of formal heresy, even if he wasn’t teaching. Vatican I and the dogma of the indefecibility of the Church state that the pope has never failing faith. Now this heresy is neither material heresy or occult heresy. The evidence is undeniable. The heresy is manifest.

Thus either Bergoglio is not the pope or Vatican I is wrong.

We are lead to this logical conclusion.

If he held this heresy prior to his election, it is null and void. If he fell into this heresy after being elected, he never had never had never failing faith, and hence was never the pope.

This is logic, plain and clear. Ban me if you want, but logical contradictions don’t exist. I say Vatican I was right.

An imperfect council would clarify if Benedict is pope or not.

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/cdl.mueller-popes-words-on-gay-civil-unions-purely-private-expression-of-opinion-which-every-catholic-can-and-should-freely-contradict

Cardinal says Catholics ‘can and should’ disagree with Pope’s ‘opinion’ on gay civil unions
'When in doubt, be in favor of God.'
By Maike Hickson
Thu Oct 22, 2020 - 12:48 pm EST

Cardinal Gerhard Müller.
October 22, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) – Cardinal Gerhard Müller, in his first reaction to the new papal interview which endorses civil unions of same-sex couples, states that when there is a conflict between the words of a Pope and the Words of God, one has to choose God. He reminds us of St. Paul who had to withstand St. Peter, the first Pope, when the latter was teaching error. The German cardinal also tells Catholics that in such a case where the Pope does not teach the Word of God, but his “purely private” opinion, they “should freely contradict” him.

Finally, Cardinal Müller states that Pope Francis, “instead of meeting with people who feel confirmed by him in their attitude and wrong thinking and who show off to the world with their picture with the Pope, [should] study Daniel Mattson's book and invite him to a conversation. He is an American who has found the way out of the disgracefulness of sexual promiscuity and into a life of abstinence in the ‘freedom and glory of the children of God’ (Rom 8:21).”

In a new film that will premiere in North America Sunday but premiered in Rome yesterday, Pope Francis has contradicted Catholic Church teaching by calling for homosexual civil unions to be legalized. Speaking of homosexual civil unions, he said, “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

Cardinal Müller makes it clear that this new papal statement has as its effect that “Catholics are irritated” and the “enemies of the Church feel confirmed by the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ.” For example, the General Secretary of the United Nations, Antonio Guterres, has praised Pope Francis for his new words for their focus on “non-discrimination” with regard to “sexual orientation.” Therefore, the new papal “decision,” he continued, “is extremely welcome.”

Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, one of the four dubia cardinals, also published today a statement and critique of the Pope's new words. He writes about the papal endorsement of same-sex unions that “such declarations generate great bewilderment and cause confusion and error among Catholic faithful, inasmuch as they are contrary to the teaching of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and of the recent Magisterium by which the Church guards, protects and interprets the whole deposit of faith contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.”

Finally, Bishop Marian Eleganti, of Chur, Switzerland, wrote to LifeSiteNews his own assessment of the situation. He states that “the papal interviews have become inflationary,” but that, “instead of teaching the faith of the Church, namely what has been and is to be believed everywhere, always and by everyone (Vincent de Lérins), they give us personal views that are neither indisputable nor infallible.” Such papal words, he concludes, are in contradiction with the Church's catechism: “The Church cannot encourage forms of life sanctioned by civil law that contradict her own catechism. Nor can the latter be changed in one fell swoop.”

Below is the full statement by Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller:

I do not know the exact wording of the interview statement, which is ambiguous as so often. But the effect is fatal. The Catholic faithful are irritated, the enemies of the Church feel confirmed by the Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom they reject as the Son of God. Instead of using theological and philosophical arguments of reason, they appeal to feelings, thus checkmating the rationality of faith with sentimentality. But faith does not depend on a political option in the right or left spectrum or an ideological position between conservatism or progressivism, but only on the Truth that God Himself is in His Essence and in the Word of His historical Revelation.

The Christian believes in God as the first truth and recognizes the Pope and the bishops as successors of St. Peter and the other Apostles. Loyalty to the Pope is something different from an idolatrous papolatry similar to the principle according to which the leader or the party is always right. Where there is tension between the plain and obvious Word of God and the infallible interpretation on the one hand and private expressions of opinion even by the highest church authorities on the other, the principle always applies: in dubio pro DEO [When in doubt, be in favor of God].

The Magisterium serves the Word of God and never stands above Revelation. This is in any case the valid teaching of the Church on the relationship of the Revelation of God in Christ to the Magisterium which is subordinate to it.

The present statement [of Pope Francis] is a purely private expression of opinion, which every Catholic can and should freely contradict. John Henry Newman (1801-1890), the famous Cardinal and one of the greatest teachers of the Church in modern times, has said that even worse than financial corruption in Church organizations and the moral corruption of clergy and leading laymen is corruption in matters of revealed doctrine.

This was and is the source of all the abuses and scandals in church history. What is ecclesial candor or the freedom of a Christian man? Between Pope and bishops – especially the cardinals of the Holy Roman Church – the same relationship exists analogously as between Peter and the other Apostles. St. Paul confronted St. Peter because the latter had deviated from the “truth of the Gospel” (Gal 2:14) through ambiguous behavior and speech. St. Hieronymus, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas, in their interpretation of the Epistle to the Galatians, take St. Paul's side in terms of content and praise St. Peter for his humility in allowing himself to be rebuked by him.

In the Catholic Church, the Word of God is valid – with regard to the complementarity of the sexes, to marriage and family – and this in the definitive interpretation in the person and mission of Christ, His Son, speaking to the Pharisees – then and now: “Haven’t you read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?” (Mt 19:4). There is no right to marriage and family unless a man and a woman, according to their God-created nature, freely say to one another in conscience and in the sight of God: Only you and forever – until death do us part.

Outside of legitimate marriage, according to God's Will, every sexual union is objectively a grave sin, regardless of the subjective guilt that only God knows and to whose forgiveness we can entrust ourselves always and at every moment. But we must not frivolously sin, taking the mercy of God for granted and, instead of letting ourselves be justified by His merciful judgment, we must not see ourselves confirmed in a sinful act by the applause of dechristianized contemporaries.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes a clear distinction between pastoral care and personal attention to persons with a inclination towards persons of the same sex and the objective evaluation of homosexual acts or even heterosexual acts outside marriage which are contrary to God's Commandment. “Whoever says that he remains in Him must also lead a life as HE led it.” (1 John 2:6). Keeping the Commandments of God is an expression of love for Him and the recognition of their healing effect on man.

The Pope should, instead of meeting with people who feel confirmed by him in their attitude and wrong thinking and who show off to the world with their picture with the Pope, study Daniel Mattson's book and invite him to a conversation. He is an American who has found the way out of the disgracefulness of sexual promiscuity and into a life of abstinence in the “freedom and glory of the children of God” (Rom 8:21).



Sent from my iPhone

 

Thank God for Cardinal Muller.

 

Its perfectly clear to Cardinals Muller and Burke as well as Archbishop Vigano and Bishop Strickland and Tobin what the pope meant and intended regarding gay civil unions.

Why are others refusing to admit this and instead insist it’s “fake news” or bad translations?!?

 

The rest, at best, are in that River Nile you mentioned earlier. Others actually agree with Pope Francis and quite a few would like to go further...much further.

 

Right now (and with sadness), I must agree with you. This small group of holy and intelligent ordained prelates of wisdom and authority would never have addressed this debacle in the way they each have, if they did not believe that the Pope did, indeed, mean what he said as he said it.

 

So even after thier criticism, none of these, Cardinals Muller and Burke, Archbishop Vigano and Bishop Strickland and Tobin conclude that the Pope is not Pope.

 

I would like to add that amidst all this moral chaos swirling around me, it is a blessing to be on a forum where some are like minded on important issues of our Blessed Faith!

 

I have to take a step back from what I've shared above, in the sense that it speaks only of objective truth. Not that that is wrong.

My daughter's family has traveled from California to spend 6 days with us. Rachel has a faithful, wonderful husband, Stephen, plus their four beautiful children aged 9 down to 1. Today we drove up in two cars to Alexandria Bay on the St. Lawrence River. One of the nearby islands has the impressive Bolt Castle on it and we were able to view one of the international barges pass by, heading for the Atlantic!

On the hour ride home Stephen engaged in a conversation with me about Pope Francis' thoughts and statements relative to this thread. Interestingly enough, Stephen's education had been focused on Christian therapy for struggling homosexuals. Unfortunately, it was the time when many States were starting to outlaw such therapy and so Stephen switched careers. Still, he was keen on sharing his view about the Pope's remarks.

Stephen reminded me that though the culture at large embraces LGBT for the most part, a key roadblock to a homosexual's "going straight" is the emotional fallout caused by familial rejection. Often this rejection is tied up with "condemning" religious beliefs. So Stephen relayed that conversations on forums like MOG focus on objective truth and doctrine, while Francis refuses to address truth without the emotional backdrop. I personally remember in my year of internship as a chaplain, that there was a homosexual in the ICU for 2 months whose partner was there most days to visit and provide companionship. This "faithfulness" surprised me, and without my denying the truth of homosexual sin, caused me to realize issues are not always cut-and-dry.

We ended our conversation convinced that the ultimate roadblock/solution in all of our difficult trials is the necessity of taking up our cross, as a necessary expression of our love and trust in Christ. Francis appears to state that love and accompaniment is the essential element in reaching out to others. Whether it is a difficult marriage, or a troubling orientation, understanding and compassion wins out in his mind. But it is incomplete. Authentic compassion necessarily requires embracing the truth and taking up one's Cross while keeping one's eyes fixed on Jesus.

So while staying true to objective truth, I must never forget the humility needed to take up one's Cross in the quest for obedience to right dogma. Empathy by itself without obedience always falls short.

 

That's right. Because he is the Pope unless sufficient evidence can be produced to prove he's not, and the First See is judged by no one.

I think it was Pope Paul V who issued a Papal Bull warning that a heretic could infiltrate the papacy. That was at the time of the Council of Trent when the Church was dealing with the Lutheran rebellion. If memory serves me, that Pope said that the infiltrator should be shunned. I can't remember whether he also said that such an anti-Pope should be deposed, conditional on proof that he had been a heretic prior to his becoming Pope.

While Pope Francis did support a law recognising civil unions in Argentina when he was Bishop of Buenos Aires, that was in the context of the debate surrounding the legalisation of gay marriage in that country. He framed his support for civil unions in the context of it being the lesser of two evils - the greater evil being to call it marriage. He has always been very careful to stop short of making an outright, undeniably heretical statement, choosing, instead, to use language which is open to a faithful interpretation while sending a signal that he favours the heretical interpretation.

The best we can hope for is that he will turn around and actually do his duty of defending the faith rather than undermining it. Failing that, a declaration of anathema against him from a Church Council which could only happen after his death or voluntary resignation. Considering that he has stacked the episcopate with like minded Bishops, an extraordinary Council would be a waste of time while he is alive and His appointees won't anathematise him under a new Pope. The hierarchy we have now are more likely to give us a worse Pope if that were possible - one who "develops" the "doctrine" of Pope Francis and may well fast-track him to sainthood. Tough times ahead. All we can do is trust that Jesus will rein them all in eventually although it might not happen in our lifetime. Meanwhile, we stay in the barque and heed the advice of faithful Bishops like Cardinal Muller. The heretics and apostates would like nothing better than to see us jump ship.

 

Dolours, well said. Thank you.

 

Good question.

 

Yes. This is true.

 

I am a firm believer in the efficacy of going to guardian angels--sending my angel to join another angel in prayer for that soul. I have had remarkable answers so I think it is a great idea.

 

Perhaps the Pope is not aware of apostolates like Courage International?

Encounter Christ. Discover yourself. Grow in holiness.

A Roman Catholic apostolate for men and women who experience same-sex attractions and those who love them.

https://couragerc.org/