That's the whole point Mario, and yes it is scary when you think about it. Several years ago I attended a N.O. Mass at a Catholic Church I used to attend and years previous and the priest was not even vested. He wore only a light pink alb, and when he began the Mass I felt totally confused and began looking at the other people thinking I might have come into a Protestant service. No one seemed to be disturbed at the priests lack of vestments, so for them this was normal. I attend Mass in the Latin Rite and feel so at peace now. But yes you are right the video was a Lutheran service and their communion is consubstantiation which is condemned by the Catholic Church.
The Novus Ordo mass was meant to resemble the Protestant service. This is the crucial point about the Novus Ordo mass - it was formulated with the help of 6 Protestants in order that the mass may become acceptable to the Protestants, who do not believe in transubstantiation and the Real Presence! As stated in the Ottaviano Intervention: "It has every possibility of satisfying the most modernist of Protestants." Thus, in the Novus Ordo mass, the emphasis is on the mass being a meal or a memorial. No allusion to the mass being the unbloody renewal of the sacrifice on Calvary. This is exactly what puzzles me about people defending the Novus Ordo mass and resisting the Traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo mass is open to abuse, and we have all seen and experienced it, I'm sure. It is horrible to have to entertain doubts about whether the Novus Ordo mass one attended is valid, based on the deviations from the norm that one sees being performed. If the celebrant cares so little about the sacredness of the mass, does he even have the correct intention of consecrating the bread and wine?
Amen to that! I love you too, Mario, because I know you are my brother who truly loves the Lord our God.
Having been a Protestant up until a few years ago I have never seen or experienced anything resembling that video. In fact, not a single service I have ever attended came even remotely close to resembling the Mass. But given that there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 400,000 Protestant groups now calling themselves churches it is really no surprise I guess.
St. Padre Pio, Stigmatist Priest for 50 years from 1918 to his death in 1968, offered only the Holy Mass in the Tridentine rite; it obviously sanctified him and made him a great Saint who gave great glory to God in offering it and offering himself. He never once complained of it or said Mass in the vernacular or changing other prayers (like introducing alternatives to the Roman Canon) were necessary. I believe Bishops and Priests especially should take the lead, especially after Summorum Pontificum, in promoting the TLM in their dioceses, perfectly as it was before, with Altar rails, kneeling for Holy Communion etc. I have no doubt the New Mass is a Valid Mass, but it is only 50 years old; historically speaking, it is a relatively new liturgical experiment. Who knows, perhaps 50 years from now, it may not exist? It is a valid Mass surely, but the focus of Holy Mass must be to offer Sacrifice to the Majesty of God, give Him the greatest possible glory, and sanctify and save the souls of those who attend it, as well as the Poor Souls who are waiting in Purgatory etc. When the Church says Holy Mass perfectly in the Tridentine rite, more souls are sanctified and saved. https://liturgyguy.com/2014/08/23/seminarians-and-the-latin-mass/ This month hundreds of young men, having discerned a vocation to the priesthood, are commencing this journey by entering the seminary. Several hundred graduate theology students are also returning to seminary as they move ever closer to ordination, God willing. As it has been over seven years since Pope Benedict XVI issued Summorum Pontificum, it is both timely and appropriate to see how much support seminaries are demonstrating for the Latin Mass through the liturgical formation of these young men. During the course of researching this I interviewed nearly a dozen priests and seminarians. Specifically I wanted to know whether or not seminaries in the United States are currently training the men in their charge to offer both forms of the Roman Rite. I soon discovered that seminaries simply respond to the priorities and agendas of the dioceses from which they receive the majority of their seminarians, and therein lies the problem. Confidentially I was told of direct conversations with bishops who believe that, while the Extraordinary Form is now technically available worldwide and that every priest can learn to celebrate it, the pastoral need for it is minimal, pertaining to a relatively small group of faithful. These same bishops note that while this group is a rather vocal minority, it is nonetheless a minority. For their own dioceses, many bishops simply request seminaries to provide a general liturgical formation which they believe will have the greatest impact on the largest number of parishes. In these dioceses, that liturgical seismic event known as Summorum Pontficum never happened. In the near future we should not expect the majority of dioceses to request, let alone mandate, that their seminarians receive instruction in offering the traditional mass. A seminary instructor shared his belief that most seminaries in the United States, and most likely worldwide, provide little if any training in the Extraordinary Form. Often rectors are simply afraid of antagonizing diocesan bishops. Ultimately, like so much else in the Church today, the issue is largely a generational one. Those bishops and archbishops whose own formation and ordination came in the immediate aftermath of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae (1969) are often the ones most militant in their opposition to the old mass. It was also explained to me that while some seminaries do provide training for offering the Extraordinary Form, they will not do so without first receiving written permission from the seminarian’s bishop. This has been the case, for example, at Mount St. Mary’s in Maryland, which does offer instruction to third and fourth year theologians, but only with the permission of their bishop. Of course, with some aging prelates, permission is never granted. Widespread support for the Latin Mass in seminaries, one priest told me, is frankly going to require more courageous bishops requesting it and, sadly, more of the “old guard” going on to their reward. While the majority of dioceses still see little value in their seminarians learning both forms of the Roman Rite, there are noticeable exceptions. Dioceses as diverse as Lincoln (Nebraska), Arlington (Virginia), Madison (Wisconsin) and Charlotte (North Carolina) either require, or strongly support, their seminarians learning the traditional mass. Fr. John Zuhlsdorf recently wrote about the amazing liturgical and vocational resurgence occurring in the afore mentioned Diocese of Madison, Wisconsin. During a week long orientation with his seminarians, Bishop Robert Morlino celebrated Mass for them in the Extraordinary Form. As Fr. Z also reported: Bp. Morlino told the men – 32 in number! – that it was his expectation that all of them learn how to say Mass in the Extraordinary Form before they are ordained…Morlino did not say that they would be required to use it all the time, but that they must know how to use it. If seminaries are not offering the opportunity to learn the older form (which they ought to be, by the way), they could go to workshops or find priests who could help them to learn it. Bottom line: they are to learn the Extraordinary Form. In addition to these dioceses, both Wichita and Peoria have also permitted their seminarians to learn the traditional mass. Most of these dioceses are also recognized, on a per capita basis, as being leaders in producing vocations to the priesthood. This, I would argue, is no coincidence. In the end, hope does spring eternal. A priest friend who was ordained during Benedict’s papacy confided that all seminarians these days, even those who do not necessarily show a specific interest in the Traditional Latin Mass, seek solemnity and reverence in the mass. There is a great deal of interest in sacred music and in other ways by which a sense of the transcendent and beautiful can be restored to the liturgy. To a man, all of the priests I have spoken with who offer both forms of the Roman Rite believe they are better priests for being able to do so. As one put it, “I will tell you this: it has absolutely affected and enhanced the way that I offer the Ordinary Form…the sense of the Sacrifice that is there in the Extraordinary Form I carry (over) to the OF…” Recognizing the benefit and necessity for our diocesan priests to be able to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in both forms, may more bishops support a complete liturgical formation for this current generation of seminarians.
If one wants to call Holy Mass in the Traditional Form "extraordinary", maybe we can focus on its extraordinary effects of grace that we perceive. Study after study has shown that the Tridentine Mass will prove extremely helpful to Bishops in boosting holy Vocations and to Parishes in increasing a fervent Catholic life among the laity. " Charlotte’s Boom in Seminarians SEP 16 Posted by Brian Williams There is much to celebrate in Charlotte, North Carolina these days. As reported by the Catholic News Herald: For the first time in its 44-year history, the Diocese of Charlotte has 24 men in formation in three seminaries. A contributing factor to the record number of seminarians this year has been the establishment of a minor seminary in Charlotte, St. Joseph’s College Seminary. In addition to the eight young men in minor seminary, thirteen men are studying at the Pontifical College Josephinum in Columbus, Ohio and three at the Pontifical North American College in Rome. Of these, five are scheduled to be ordained next June. While every seminarian is an example of a young man’s affirmative response to God’s invitation, this record number of seminarians should also lead us to reflect upon all that the Diocese of Charlotte is doing right. Under the steady and orthodox leadership of Bishop Peter Jugis the diocese has fostered a strong devotion to the Eucharist. Just this past weekend Charlotte hosted its 12th Eucharistic Congress. 15,000 people participated this year, many arriving early Saturday to join in the annual Eucharistic Procession through the streets of downtown Charlotte. Respect for the Eucharist extends to the liturgy as well. An increasing number of parishes in the diocese have returned to the use of the communion paten at Mass, some even the communion rail. This in turn has resulted in a growing number of the faithful rediscovering the traditional practice of receiving Communion on the tongue. Bishop Jugis has also been highly supportive of the Traditional Mass. From weekly Sunday Latin Masses, to First Friday & First Saturday Masses in the Extraordinary Form, the priests of the diocese have been encouraged to meet the spiritual needs of traditional Catholics. In 2016 the diocese offered its first ever Confirmation Mass in the Extraordinary Form. Orchestral masses and sacred music camps are also increasing in frequency. Finally, several higher profile parishes have returned to the traditional practice of only altar boys serving the Mass. This includes the cathedral as well. Three of these parishes presently account for a quarter of Charlotte’s seminarians. The Diocese of Charlotte is vibrant. Dedicated clergy are active in the formation of the next generation. Cassocks, lace, and reverent liturgies are forming the young. It is important to note how this diocesan culture of orthodoxy has carried over into the newly founded minor seminary. Each day begins and ends in great silence. In the morning that silence is only interrupted by Holy Mass. On any given day Mass may be offered in either the Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form. In full obedience to Pope St. John XXIII’s 1962 Apostolic Constitution Veterum Sapientia, the young men of St. Joseph’s College Seminary are learning Latin. To that end, the seminarians began the year in total immersion, only speaking Latin for the first two weeks of study. Ultimately, at the heart of every vocations success story is prayer. I recently learned an interesting fact about Bishop Jugis. As His Excellency travels throughout the diocese, visiting parish after parish, he often meets young men discerning a call to the priesthood. Each one expressing an interest becomes a personal prayer intention of the bishop’s. He prays for their vocation. Prayer and action. Orthodoxy and tradition. And a love for Our Eucharistic Lord. This is a universal blueprint for fostering discernment and priestly vocations; and not just in Charlotte."
See also: https://liturgyguy.com/2017/07/14/increasing-vocations-isnt-rocket-science/ In this time of Lent, let us pray and fast for more holy vocations to the Priesthood and to Religious Life. Some may disagree with me and others, but I think it's quite clear and well documented the "Extraordinary" Mass will positively impact Vocations to Consecrated Life - that's a great thing and Bishops should be enthusiastic and happy to see their seminaries booming thanks to it! " Return of the Seminarians OCT 23 Posted by Brian Williams Seminarians from the Pontifical North American College are ordained as deacons during a Mass at the Altar of the Chair in St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican Oct. 3. Forty one seminarians were ordained. (CNS photo/Paul Haring) (Oct. 4, 2013) CNS photo by Paul Haring As I have written about previously here at Liturgy Guy, the Catholic Church in America is currently experiencing an increase in seminarians. This resurgence of young men who are responding to God’s call bodes well for the future, while serving as a source of hope for today. It is interesting to see where many of our seminarians are coming from by taking a closer look at which dioceses are fostering vocations to the priesthood. The Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska Currently the diocese has 47 young men in seminary despite having only 134 parishes and less than 98,000 Catholics. The Diocese of Lincoln has long been recognized (on a per capita basis) as a leader in producing vocations to the priesthood. For over 20 years Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz created an oasis of orthodoxy in the heartland of America. The diocese is known for its refusal to permit girls to serve at the altar, a strong support of the Traditional Latin Mass, many Catholic schools (including 6 high schools), multiple religious orders, as well as being home to the North American Seminary for the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP). The success of Lincoln continues following the installation in 2012 of its ninth bishop, the Most Reverend James D. Conley. Which brings us to the next success story. The Diocese of Wichita, Kansas Currently Wichita has an astounding 59 young men in seminary. It is interesting to note that back in the 1990’s the chaplain for the Newman Center on the campus of Wichita State was none other than Father James D. Conley, now Bishop Conley of Lincoln, Nebraska. This vocations rich diocese of only 91 parishes was shepherded by Bishop Michael Jackels from April 2005 until May of this year. Prior to his installation as bishop, however, Father Jackels had been a priest in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska under Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, serving at one time as his Assistant Director of Vocations. The Diocese of Phoenix, Arizona Prior to Bishop Jackels arrival in Wichita, the diocese had been led by Bishop Timothy Olmstead from 2001 to 2003. However, in 2003 Pope John Paul II appointed Bishop Olmstead to the Diocese of Phoenix, Arizona. Much like in Wichita, Bishop Olmstead has fostered vocations in Pheonix as well. Currently this diocese of only 92 parishes has 27 young men in seminary. The Diocese of Arlington, Virginia On the east coast of the United States there are a few more success stores to share, beginning with the Diocese of Arlington, Virginia. Despite only having 68 parishes, the diocese currently has 38 seminarians. For years Arlington and Lincoln were the only remaining dioceses in the United States to prohibit girl altar servers. While the Arlington diocese eventually granted permission for girls to altar serve (at the pastors discretion), approximately 60 percent of parishes have maintained the tradition of altar boys only. The reason most frequently cited: to assist with the discernment process and to foster vocations to the priesthood. In addition, the Diocese of Arlington has made the Extraordinary Form of the Mass more widely available to the faithful. Currently there are 12 parishes which offer the Latin Mass on a regular basis ... Immediately following the release of Summorum Pontificum by Pope Benedict XVI in 2007, Bishop Jugis sent several priests to learn how to offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form. In addition, many of our current seminarians are being taught how to offer both forms of the Roman Rite. As our liturgical heritage is rediscovered, and the traditional and sacred beauty of the Church is presented to the faithful, we are experiencing a significant increase in vocations. Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter In addition to these diocesan stories there is the also the ongoing success of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP). Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary is home to the Fraternity’s English-speaking candidates and is located in Denton, Nebraska within the territorial boundaries of the previously mentioned Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. The Fraternity has nearly 80 young men studying for the priesthood at Our Lady of Guadalupe. Currently the society has a presence in 34 dioceses in the United States and 6 in Canada. These young men are drawn to the Fraternity, which has a charism to “offer the Sacred Liturgy, including the Holy Mass…as well as the other sacraments in all of their traditional solemnity according to the Latin liturgical books of 1962.” While these are just a few of the success stories, there are more. At the same time, there are still far too many dioceses that are struggling to foster vocations. I would suggest researching your own diocese to find out how many seminarians you have. Then pray for those young men. In addition, pray for all of the young men still discerning. Finally, we cannot be surprised by what we find where vocations are abundant. Faithful families. Strong orthodoxy. Beautiful liturgy, often in the Extraordinary Form. In many cases, the venerable practice of male only altar servers, specifically for the purpose of fostering vocations. And always we find people of prayer.
As scripture clearly teaches, God will speak to his church people through prophecy (Amos 3:7). I have never read a credible prophecy that teaches that the Traditional mass is the only valid mass under heaven. Has anyone? Yet I can speak to the vernacular mass that came out of VatII which credible prophecy speaks to as being of God. I have no problem with the Latin mass, other than I don't speak Latin. But my point is, for me, heavens messages have validated the mass that came out of a valid church council of Vatican II. I have truly witnessed very poorly said novus ordo masses no doubt. But they were still valid and God knows I tried to make up in prayer and reverence what is lacking in these services.
Well, I don't think anyone is saying the New Mass is invalid, only that there is much less grace, especially when Mass is celebrated facing the people, when Communion in the hands leads to irreverence and sacrilege (and for e.g. Maria Simma said many Bishops and even Prelates will spend a long time in Purgatory expiating that fault) and when things are done incorrectly and there are so many abuses. Holy Mass is the Church's Principal Source of Grace. St. Padre Pio said the world could exist more easily without the Sun than without Holy Mass. So we have to try to strictly observe the Tradition that Popes and Saints have handed down to us over the course of so many centuries. Otherwise, the Church's Mission will suffer, in terms of lost vocations, lesser conversions, fewer baptisms etc. Often even in modern apparitions where Jesus speaks of the importance of preserving the Tradition of Faith, the Bishops immediately become suspicious and react badly. So how can Our Lord or Our Lady say anything that is even mildly perceived to go against the trend? Heaven sometimes has to warn us in other ways and sometimes speaks more about the liturgical abuses etc. If at least those were corrected, that would be good. But for one e.g. Our Lady of Akita is fully approved by the Bishop and even by Rome, and She has told us: "The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day, recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests. The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, and bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their Confreres. The Church and altars will be vandalized. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. "The demon will rage especially against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them." https://www.olrl.org/prophecy/akita.shtml "My children, long ago I warned you from Fatima, I warned you through many voice-boxes throughout your world that the time will come when you will embark upon a stormy sea, and it shall be bishop against bishop and cardinal against cardinal, and satan shall set himself in your midst." https://www.tldm.org/news10/akita.htm Isn't this what we are seeing today? When even Fr. Gobbi has written that through Ecclesiastical Masonry (or masonry having infiltrated the Church, which according to the Blessed Mother's Locutions, is what the Apocalypse means when it speaks of the Beast with horns like a Lamb), Satan will attempt to totally ban the Mass in the NEXT and FINAL stage of his plan and then introduce something that actually causes full invalidity and even more and worse, I think it's wise to be cautious. Of course, the New Mass as it currently has been said is still valid. Even SSPX Bishops like Bp. Fellay and Bp. Williamson both acknowledge this. There was an exorcism many Priests believed was fully authentic wherein it was said there is more grace in the TLM, it gives more glory to God and saves more souls. http://www.jesusmariasite.org/exorcism-human-demon-judas-speaks/ Many people have spoken of Freemasonic and Communist infiltration in the Church beginning in the 60s or even earlier. Like Bella Dodd for example. https://catholicism.org/bella-dodds-prophecy-of-communist-tactics-in-infiltrating-the-church.html The Blessed Mother to Fr. Gobbi: "The black beast like a leopard indicates Freemasonry; the beast with two horns like a lamb indicates Freemasonry infiltrated through the whole of the church, that is ecclesiastical Masonry, which has spread especially among the members of the Hierarchy. This Masonic infiltration, in the Church, was already predicted by Me in Fatima, when I announced to you that Satan would be introduced up to the summit of the Church. If the task of Masonry is to lead souls to perdition, bringing them to the worship of a false god, the purpose of Ecclesiastical Masonry is instead the destruction of Christ and his Church, building a new idol, namely a false christ and a false church." https://gloria.tv/article/easE78XUe4WY1AX7JEPGpXnJG I believe when the time comes when a false newer liturgy which may contain outright heresy and blasphemy is introduced, Traditional Priests will be much needed. And so will good Priests who start favoring Tradition. Also, the 60s were generally a crazy time in the world. So much of what was good and holy and traditional and righteous risked being tossed out everywhere. Vatican II never said Latin should be banned, it said the opposite. The Traditional Mass was never actually forbidden, but that impression was given for decades. Please read this survey from Fr. Donald, it contains quite surprising results: https://liturgyguy.com/2019/02/24/n...s-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attendees/ It found for e.g. that only 2% of those who frequently attend the TLM approve of contraception - which we all know the Church has definitively rejected - while 89% of those in the NOM do. Also, "Preliminary studies by this author indicate that the TLM produces 7-8 times the number of Priestly and Religious vocations" Frankly, I also am not 100% certain what is the right approach yet. But I definitely think Priests should make the bold and courageous decision to say the TLM. Faithful should try to find the most orthodox Priest they can who says Holy Mass in as traditional a manner as possible. That will have to be the best for now. These are confusing times and as was said earlier all of us are brothers and sisters trying to figure them out. I think there is more going on here when we dig deep. Pope Benedict XVI both as Pope and in previous years has written much about prevalent liturgical abuse. It may make sense for the TLM to be more widely used.
This discussion was actually quite encouraging.. Michael Matt, editor of The Remnant, had a front row seat to post Vatican 2 Church history; he describes the total wasteland of traditional Catholicism from the 1970's until the mid 1990's. Slowly this has changed: many young priests are embracing traditional Catholicism as are many other Catholics. Looking at my young adult children and their friends, especially their convert friends, they do not like feel good, milktoast Catholicism. They love Thomas Aquinas, the early Church fathers, and Latin Mass. Michael Matt discusses these very positive changes and is hopeful.
Yes I get this. When everything seems to be running downhill pretty well down the drain there is a real call to certainty. Theology was never meant to be innovative, it was never meant to invent new, 'Truths' just to throw additional light on Ancient, unchanging Truths. Similiarly I think the mass is perfect n and off itself, nothing should be added to it, nothing taken away. This Fad of constantly running about inventing and changing things seems both crazy and exhausting. Where do these people get the time?
