This is why in spite of our feelings we need to choose our words carefully about Pope Francis when we are upset. God has a plan, Pope Francis is a part of it as well as all of the body of the church. We don't want to fail to run the race to the end.
This is a long video, but if you go to the 40 minute mark onward and watch. I would like to know of any opinion what this service is to be considered,.. traditional, new order, or just traditional Protestant? Is consubstantiation taking place or transubstantiation? Are the people in this video receiving the true body ad blood of Our Lord?
I have to respectfully disagree. Paul and Apollos had not been teaching different doctrines, but the same one that had been passed down from Christ. The situation in the Church now is totally different. The Modernists have largely taken over - they have created the false church, with teachings (disguised as pastoral actions) to suit itching ears. The true Church that holds on to the true teachings is small and hidden within. What would be the worth of unity at the expense of the Truth? With regards to the Mass, allow me to quote some excerpts from a letter written by Fr Richard Heilman in April 2016: AN OPEN LETTER TO ALL THOSE LOOKING TO RESTORE A SENSE OF THE SACRED [......] "Setting aside any debate on the value of the documents of Vatican II, it is clear to any reasonable person that a trend was set in motion, after the council, by so-called leading experts, to make drastic changes in the Church and, most especially, in the Mass. This trend is known by many as the “Spirit of Vatican II,” since these so-called experts could not point to actual writings from the council to justify their innovations and eradications, but simply proclaimed it was implied by a spirit of the documents. For the most part, the post-Vatican II trend was one that sought to demythologize the faith; to root out any sense of the supernatural or the sacred (most especially, in the Mass). Many see the devastation of the past 50 years as the coup de grâce of a Deism that finds it’s roots in the period of the Enlightenment (see here). By the time I entered seminary in the 1980s, our training seemed to have an overriding theme: We were called to completely rethink former notions of Catholicism. We seemed to look at our ancestors’ way of believing and practicing their faith much like we would look back at those who believed the world was flat … they meant well, but they just didn’t know any better. This is why it is often referred to as the heresy of “Modernism,” as it looks to erase the old in favor of the new." [.....] By the time I was ordained in 1988, my first parish had dropped the title, “Father,” so I was then referred to as “Rick.” It was considered “evolved” if the priests were never seen wearing a roman collar. I spent the first 10 years of my priesthood trying to be cool, and trying to make Catholicism and the Mass hip and “with it.” We would meet with a Liturgy Committee to see what new trendy thing we could insert into the Mass. The Mass was focused on entertainment, and it was focused on us or, worse yet, the priest. I can remember interjecting impromptu comments (ad-libbing) throughout the Mass in order to keep the “experience” casual and whimsical and fun. I used to sing the Eucharistic Prayer like I was Dean Martin. The Mass seemed to resemble a night club act or a Broadway musical. This wasn’t unique to me … it was the common practice of most priests during that era. And, from what I understand, it remains common in many parishes today. The prevailing underlying thought was that Protestants (particularly, Evangelicals) had it right all along, and we had it wrong. THE POINT For I have learnt for a fact that nothing so effectively obtains, retains and regains grace, as that we should always be found not high-minded before God, but filled with holy fear. –St. Bernard I recently wrote about an epiphany I experienced at a Papal Mass with Pope John Paul II in 1998, when I began to ask myself about what I (we) have been doing until then, “Where, in all of this, was any sense of awe and wonder before God’s supernatural power? Where was the sense of God’s majesty?” Saint Francis of Assisi said, “Man should tremble, the world should quake, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest.” Where was that any longer? I’ve come to understand that we have, by and large, removed the very gateway into the Divine Life. [.....] In America, we are seeing the same kind of increases in sacramental participation and vocations to the priesthood in those dioceses and parishes where they are bucking the trend of a profane and worldly modernism and embracing a traditionalism that fosters a sense of the supernatural; that sees all of the elements of the rich heritage of our Catholic faith as precious jewels to be cherished, rather than old shoes to be discarded. ..... What is needed, first and foremost in our times, is to assist people in breaking through – awakening – to the trigger gift of Fear of the Lord (or Awe and Wonder in God’s Presence). Before this destructive post-Vatican II trend of stripping out of all things sacred, Catholicism led the way in preparing the souls of the faithful to receive this first and most necessary “trigger” Gift of Awe and Wonder through sacred art, sacred architecture, sacred music and special attention to the sacred offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. ..... We need to start here by restoring everything that aided the faithful to open themselves to Awe and Wonder before the Lord! We need to help our fellow man tear through the veil of the unspiritual man to the spiritual man, thus enabling him to receive *all* of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. We cannot even begin to consider a credible and authentic “New Evangelization” without, first, placing our primary focus upon this “gateway gift” of the Holy Spirit. ...knowingly or unknowingly, leading figures in the Church, immediately following the Council of Vatican II, set out to de-mythologize our faith, a flat out rejection of the supernatural power of God. ..... (continues below...)
This is our first and most necessary priority. We simply must put all of our eggs in this basket of restoring a sense of the sacred; a sense of the supernatural. As Pope St. Gregory stated above, it is the first gift; the very “gateway gift” of the Holy Spirit; the Gift of Awe and Wonder. Therefore, if we are truly serious about evangelization, our attention must be placed on restoring what the Catholic Church once, so beautifully possessed: sacred art, sacred architecture, sacred music and special attention to the sacred offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything else is just “spinning our wheels,” until we give this the primary attention it requires. Pope Benedict XVI famously stated, “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is, to a large extent, due to the disintegration of the liturgy.” Building on this, Fr. John Zuhlsdorf speaks often about, “Save the Liturgy, Save the World.” Nothing could be more true, when we consider the fact that the world needs saints, ignited by supernatural grace. And, that it is reverent and sacred Masses that assist the faithful in receiving this first and essential “trigger gift” of the Holy Spirit: The Gift of Awe and Wonder. Therefore, we must discern, together, how to “save the liturgy.” What does that look like? While I have my own opinions about this restoration, I do not pretend to be among the experts. I will leave those decisions to them. All I know is that I believe something drastic must be done to restore the Catholic Church’s once great aptitude for bringing souls to that first Gift of Awe and Wonder. .......... Decades of lenient, non-confrontational leadership have left the faithful feeble and prone to be “conformed to the pattern of this world” (Rom 12:2). St. Augustine once said, “Charity is no substitute for justice withheld.” The unfortunate laxity of discipline has permitted confusion and strife where there should be clarity and harmony, an authentic unity based on the truth. As a result, the modern trend among those who believe and teach falsehoods that directly contradict the Church’s teaching is to consider these pockets of dissent as merely “differing tribes” within the Catholic Church. In this deceptive tribal system, those who believe in and teach all that the Church teaches are then considered extreme among these tribes. Right or wrong, religious leadership seemed to calculate that it is better to refrain from “charged issues” for fear of offending some or even losing members. However, St. Peter Canisius cautioned: “Better that only a few Catholics should be left, staunch and sincere in their religion, than that they should, remaining many, desire as it were to be in collusion with the Church’s enemies and in conformity with the open foes of our faith.” It is counter-productive if we have “some” parishes looking to restore a sense of the sacred, while others do not. This is a growing phenomenon that only sees parishioners picking and choosing the parish “doing the Mass” the way they like. It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The older we get, the more we tend to stick with “the way we have done it before.” For the most part, we are seeing older adults choosing the modernized version of the Mass because they have grown accustomed to it. In the meantime, young adults find this modern version kitschy and mundane, and many end up leaving the practice of their faith altogether. However, there is growing evidence that, when these younger adults find parishes who are working hard to restore a sense of the sacred, they return to the faith. Younger adults seem more open and drawn to this sense of the sacred that assists them in breaking through to that trigger gift of awe and wonder. Because of these differences, parishes then end up making their “directional choice” based on “what will attract the most,” rather than what is actually the right thing to do. Since older adults tend to maintain their practice of the faith, most parishes resist losing their parishioners to the neighboring parish by working toward a restoration of the sense of the sacred. It is time to “rally the troops” … to get on the same page. It’s time to assemble a coalition of leading experts in our time to formulate “the plan” to “Restore a Sense of the Sacred.” There are obvious names that come to mind: Cardinal Burke, Bishop Schneider, Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, and a score of Cardinals, Bishops, priests and laity who understand this critical need in our time; a time that is witnessing a mass exodus from the pews, and is allowing a multitude of souls to be in peril of eternal damnation. It’s time for this coalition to work with Cardinal Sarah, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, in designing the plan that all parishes will be instructed to follow. Is this the first move? One would hope. But, if this call for a coalition would, at first, go unheeded, would that then mean developing a petition to circulate, in order to emphasize the widespread call for such a coalition? IN CONCLUSION I wrote this letter as a simple parish priest who laments, day by day, the many souls being swept away by secular trends and fads (inside and outside of our Church), leaving their souls in great peril of eternal damnation. I can’t find it in me to just sit by and allow that to happen, while I am convinced there is, in fact, a solution to save many of these souls. Some find it easy to talk about such things as “the Church does not so much move in years, but in centuries,” as a way to dismiss our need to do anything drastic in our times. While that may be true, I also know that the disintegration of the liturgy and the stripping out of our churches were inflicted, virtually, overnight. Call me a dreamer, but I believe this restoration can occur as quickly as did the disintegration. ....... http://www.romancatholicman.com/an-...e-looking-to-restore-a-sense-of-the-sacred-2/
I was thinking about the words of St Paul in his letter to the Ephesians: Ephesians 6:12 The Armor of God …11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.… If you think about someone like, say Cardinal McCarrick being a Traditionalist or not a Traditionalist would have meant nothing to him. He had his own agenda. People choose to be evil not because of whatever liturgical forms or whatever they follow, they choose this path simply because they choose the Road of Darkness. Heresy and impurity though, I notice often seem to be coupled together in some kind of Satanic Marriage I note. That and blatant hypocrisy. Padre Pio said hypocrisy was the worst of all sins; he may well have been right.
It bears remembering too that like all the rest of us all Traditionalists do not agree amongst themselves either:
Thank you Sg. In the above, Father concludes, "Therefore, we must discern, together, how to “save the liturgy.” Let me stress, everyone here is on the same page. You are fully convinced, the TLM is the way to go. I'm a deacon in a Novus Ordo parish with a pastor who at times celebrates the TLM. In conscience, I can't just pull up stakes and go to one of the handful of Latin Mass parishes in the Syracuse diocese. My pastor has steadily introduced different elements of the "sacred." The process seems painfully slow, but, I cannot simply leave these parishioners who have been seeped in ambiguity for decades. After listening to the Uniting the Clans clip, I understand better Michael Matt's perspective. But my calling is different. Still, the two of us are Catholic brothers. May the Holy Spirit guide Michael, Taylor, you, myself, and all of us here on MOG, on the road of restoration, though the path some of us take might be a little more crooked than others. I love you, SgCatholic; may Mary Mantle's cover all of us!
Great post. Thank you. I have absolute sympathy even empathy for what you have expressed SG. I have even said many of these things myself in the past. But for me in prayer and contemplating before the Blessed Sacrament I feel called to pull back. This is my own spiritual direction from my confessor and I believe from the Lord. But I know it is not everyone's call. I can so easily be swept into the extreme positions and actually was at one time. So for me I have to be careful. And commit to pray as fervently and continuously as I can for the rescue and restoration of the Bride of Christ.
I should add that I do not mean to imply you are taking an extreme position. St Athanasius trod this road before you. You are in good company. I am talking about my original traditional Catholic friends and community going all the way to see vacantist. It grieves me to say it. But they did.
It would be nice if we had a leader who intended to help unite the members of the Church but I wonder how many would still not be pleased. I am thinking of Cardinal Sarah, I think that if he were the next pope he would make very positive steps toward uniting the Church. Recently, I had a discussion with a friend from MOG about who would be a good candidate for the next pope and at the time I had forgotten a lot of what Cardinal Sarah has spoken out about. Here is a very good article about this from July 22, 2017. If you read through some of the comments you'll understand what I meant when I stated that some will still not be pleased but we must be patient. I will be praying for Cardinal Sarah's suggestions to come to fruition. Blogs | Jul. 22, 2017 Could Cardinal Sarah Bring an End to the Liturgy Wars? Pope Benedict XVI explained that he permitted the two missals to coexist not merely to satisfy the wishes of certain groups of the faithful, but also to allow for the mutual enrichment of the two forms of the Roman rite. Kathy Schiffer | http://www.ncregister.com/blog/kschiffer/could-cardinal-sarah-bring-an-end-to-the-liturgy-wars In the years since the Second Vatican Council, a rift has grown between the “conservative Catholics” – those who prefer the traditional Latin Mass – and those who attend the post-Vatican II Novus Ordo Mass, often singing robust hymns by the St. Louis Jesuits. Are both liturgical forms valid? Yes – although the most strident participants in what has come to be called the “Liturgy Wars” might say otherwise. Traditionalist Catholics who prefer the Latin Mass, wear a mantilla, and kneel to receive Communion on the tongue often eschew the modernists who have left those traditions behind. Novus Ordo Catholics who stand to receive the Eucharist, and who love the contemporary music of David Haas and Michael Joncas, often regard their more traditional counterparts as too “rigid.” Now, though, Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, has offered a proposal which could unite the two camps of Catholic worshipers. According to The Tablet, Cardinal Sarah has set out steps for a “reconciliation” between the old and new forms of the Mass. Among the new ideas for achieving peace are: A new, shared calendar of feasts, ensuring that the Novus Ordo and the traditional Latin Mass use the same readings each day. An end to the phrase “reform of the reform.” That phrase, Cardinal Sarah points out, has become synonymous with dominance of one clan over another. “This expression may then become inappropriate,” he says, “so I prefer to speak of liturgical reconciliation. In the Church, the Christian has no opponent.” He suggests, instead, using the phrase “mutual enrichment of the rites.” Reception of Communion on the tongue while kneeling. The inclusion of “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar,” as was customary in the older form of liturgy. The priest, as was customary in the traditional liturgy, should keep his forefingers together after consecrating the host, thus demonstrating the utmost care, reverence and importance with which the priest regards the Body of Christ. A new liturgy which incorporates elements of both the TLM and the Novus Ordo would incorporate periods of silence – not so that people in the pews can idly twiddle their thumbs, but rather, to encourage adoration and reflection on the mystery. Pope Benedict XVI, in his Letter to the Bishops that accompanied the Moto Proprio Summorum Pontificum, explained that he permitted the two missals to coexist not merely to satisfy the wishes of certain groups of the faithful, but also to allow for the mutual enrichment of the two forms of the Roman rite. “The two Forms of the usage of the Roman rite,” Pope Benedict wrote, “...can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal.... The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage.” Cardinal Sarah, in his July 7, 2017 address on the 10th Anniversary of Summorum Pontificum, acknowledged the intent of the Second Vatican Council to promote greater participation by the people, but called attention to the negative repercussions of the changes. Most especially, he expressed concern that the faithful must understand that the liturgical act is not just a PRAYER but also a MYSTERY, in which something is accomplished for us that we cannot fully understand, but that we must accept and receive in faith, love, obedience and adoring silence. The Mass is not just, as some Catholics have come to regard it, a “convivial meal” or the community's celebration of itself. It is an intimate, face-to-face encounter with the triune God. To supporters of the old rite, Cardinal Sarah stresses that the liturgy is not a “museum object” that must never change. And he argues that those attending the Extraordinary Form must participate actively (through their prayer and attentiveness), and that the Scripture readings, which are often read in Latin, must be understood by the people in the pews. As for those attending the newer post-Vatican II liturgy, Cardinal Sarah hopes that the priest will take a less prominent role. He wants to see a large cross on the altar, and hopes that this cross will be seen by everyone and will become “a point of reference for all.”
The bottom line is many Catholics , for one reason or another are intensely hostile to the Traditional Liturgy. To push it too much in their faces would produce Schism. We have to offer people another door to go through. Jesus spoke on this: Mark 2:22 The Patches and the Wineskins 21No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, and a worse tear will result. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins.” 23One Sabbath Jesus was passing through the grainfields, and His disciples began to pick the heads of grain as they walked along.…
I watched this carefully, Sunburst, and was a little embarrassed. The tenner of this Communion Service, as it is called, is more reverent than most Novus Ordo Masses. And the celebrant's back is to the congregation most of the time! Now, it is a Lutheran service. If an average Catholic attended this, not knowing it was Lutheran, they might even be convinced it would fulfill their Sunday obligation! The Lutheran belief is that Christ is truly present, along with the bread and wine (consubstantiation). The "Holy Communion" after the service is not reserved since they believe Christ is present only in the context of the celebration, itself. Also, the consecration of the elements does not take place within the context of a Eucharistic Prayer; there is no sacrifice which takes place; there is no union of celebrant and congregation with the eternal Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is no Apostolic succession! Apart from the embedded Lutheran consecration, there is virtually no difference between this and the Communion Service I lead as a deacon at the nursing home. Of course, I bring to the communion service consecrated hosts (the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord) which have been reserved in a tabernacle. My initial reaction is actually one of horror, because the similarity of this Lutheran communion service and the Novus Ordo is striking, though the Novus Ordo (in its substance) is valid. It won't take much finagling to bring about the Abomination of Desolation! So it is always good to have an SgCatholic around, calling us to vigilance! Safe in the Barque of Peter!
One final note. When celebrating a Communion Service on Sunday, I must still attend Holy Mass to fulfill my obligation. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to which Mother Church obligates us, not the reception of Holy Communion. Fifty years ago in the Diocese of Syracuse, there were no Communion Services. The Diocese had 400 active priests; there was a priest in every hospital, nursing home, and prison! Only Holy Masses were celebrated. Recently, there were Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist at the Loretto Nursing Home who were shocked when I would quickly exit after the Communion Service to make 11 am Holy Mass at St. James Parish. They thought they were fulfilling their duty by helping out at Loretto! Beware! The deception of JoeJerk must be trumpeted to all! Safe in the Flames of the Sacred Heart!
Wow. Looks like I am way off the mark here after reading Mario's post. It is the Latin form of the sung high mass with the litany of the Norvo Ordo. Father Z has talked about this from time to time. I am no judge of whether this is a valid consecration because I have no authority in this regard but having attended both masses now every week for over a year I would say it is a valid Mass and consecration. The priest obviously values the sacred form of the old mass and also keeps with the decrees of the second Vatican council. I love the Latin rite and am blessed to have it available every day but were I not I would be very pleased to have a priest offering such a mass given the variances we see in the form of the New Mass in some places these days. The Mass was reverent and sacred and I suspect had a new alter server participating to keep everyone on their toes.
Sorry, I am confused. Does the video show a Lutheran service that looks like a Latin form of the new Mass? Thank you.
Don, Are you saying the video you copied in post #37 is a Catholic Mass? I'm confused. Please realize it is a Lutheran service. If you mistaken it for a video of a Holy Mass my worst fears are realized. As I said in post 34: My initial reaction is actually one of horror, because the similarity of this Lutheran communion service and the Novus Ordo is striking, though the Novus Ordo (in its substance) is valid. Safe in the Barque of Peter!
