On a thread on which I am not allowed to reply, Brian has just posted this: http://motheofgod.com/threads/a-rapidly-emerging-schism.9909/#post-196573 So let me respond to that in a new thread here. Maybe I am being encouraged to say something about the emerging 'Schism' ... I will say this. There is no doubt that there is an increasing polarisation of thought in the Catholic world, something on which Cardinal Muller has commented. But with regard to the term 'schism', one could say that many Catholics who are active on the internet are already in schism as they are separting themselves from the Pope which is a fundamental tenet of Catholic belief. But of course such Catholics are not in formal schism. It is a formal schism that I do not see occurring. The hierarchy who have criticized Pope Francis are few in number and I see no desire on their part to separate formally from the Pope. Even if one or other of them decided to 'do a Lefebvre' and formally separate, I am sure they would quickly become a footnote in history. Another point to mention is that Cardinals Burke and Sara, to take two examples, give no indication whatever of sharing the extreme criticisms of Pope Francis that appear on this forum.
Schism! The Vatican is Fallen!! .... I say: Great!!! .... WONDERFUL!!! ....... and long past due! ............. and all foretold long ago. The Church, these past 100 years, has produced many a fine Clergy/Lay Saints. Many of these Saints have warned us with words like "Smoke of Satan" and "Final Confrontation" ... not to mention 100 years of Our Lady's warnings. Oh!! Our Lord had something to say about this to St Faustina/Us 80+ years ago. Door of Mercy closing ..... It's time, My Friends, to pick sides! It's time to quit wasting time parsing the babblings and VaticanSpeak that has confused, distracted and angered many throughout The Christian World and emboldened the enemies of Christendom. For 50 years the Church and secular authorities have been compromising with Evil and we have been "Taken to the Cleaners"!! The Church/Vatican II was hijacked by the Lavender Marxist Mafia and the same ilk took over the Western Left Political Parties. Maybe we can bumble along for another 50 years of Kumbaya "Compromising with Evil" .... Ya Think!!?? Let's see! On the Church side we have 50 years of tens of thousands of Good Men & Women clergy voting with their feet and thousands more discouraged in their vocations. Likewise millions of lay people. Hundreds of churches, schools and missions closed and $$$ Billions paid out to victims/lawyers of Homosexual Predator clerics and their HQ criminal cover-up Pals ..... and all STILL ongoing! On the secular side, we in my USA have murdered more babies than all the population of The USA in 1890. Once great cities are now urban wastelands best described as Welfare Slave Plantations. These places filled with the evermore angry, ignorant and needful who are constantly kept in a outraged frenzy by corrupt politicians "mining" votes every two years. Our everyday products are no longer made here but in Communist China where Christians are persecuted or other equally unpleasant places. We are working on an entire second generation of folks raised in a rudderless "Values Free Education" System where PC trumps the Rules of God & Man. Europe's NO different .... worse actually as their Left have embraced Islamic Invasion. NOW!!! Time to get back to a thread called "Schism"! Time to choose, Gang!!! Sheep or Goat? What's it gonna be .... Eh!!?? Since I don't live in Rome, I'm picking sides where I live and doing my best to figure out Sheep from Goat. However! If I did live in Rome, I'd bet that PF is the leader of The Goat Faction and I would avoid him and his pals like the Flu....... which is what I have at the moment and why I might sound even more cranky than usual. REMEMBER!! God is Running The Show and somebody has to lead The Goat Faction in Rome or elsewhere. Leave the finer points of "whatever" to the pointy-heads and concentrate on the Salvation of You/Yours ........ and put your trust in Jesus!! ..... Like He told us to do!! GOD SAVE ALL HERE!! PS: Also recall that Jesus said that Fence-Sitters are not among His favorite folks. He vomits them out ....... that can't be a good ending!!
David, you are correct in this: the pushback from other cardinals and bishops against AL and related decisions by the Holy Father are pathetic; not in content, but certainly in number. Because of this, the agenda of this Pontificate will continue to proceed on the fast track. Such was the situation in the early 4th century in regard to Arianism. Though I lament the interference of Constantine back then, I have to admit, without him there would have been no Nicene Council. At the moment, I don't see any Emperor Constantine in my neighborhood. Maranatha! Safe in the Barque of Peter!
Hmm, CrewDog seems somewhat negative about the Vatican But I want to correct his 'PS'. God has certainly spoken strongly against those who are lukewarm. But I think that such people are not the same as 'fence sitters'. But the catalogue of errors in CDs synopsis reminds me of a message from True Life in God about 'Rome'. I would not like to interpret whether Jesus is referring to the Vatican when he speaks of Rome. December 1, 1994 (Message for Rome.) "you were once My Eden, Rome, My Garden of delights, even My angels were lost in amazement over your perfect beauty; and you governed My House in holiness and justice; honesty and love was the soul of My House; you were indeed the reflection of My Eternal Light, leaving an everlasting memory to My saints and My angels; your wealth and your treasures were heavenly then; "today, Rome, your soul has turned into the Beast's reflection and you have taken the position of sentry in My territory to prohibit the entry to My Holy Spirit and the prophets who prophesy in My Name, calling you for repentance and to renounce your evil ways; to save you, I, Myself, come to your door nowto address you; have you not read: "a child of God listens to the words of God?" 4 but so far not a single word I pronounced has penetrated into you; for you, My Words are something inactive and nil; My grace has been rejected and My salvation plan discredited; you are outrageously rebellious and arrogant when it comes to the truth, this is why you claim to have knowledge and discernment on My heavenly Works so as to tarnish My mouthpieces who expose your darkness to the world ...." and you, daughter, never present your defence; there are many witnesses who can support you but the greatest one of them all is My Holy Spirit; put your hope in Me, who have the power to save you; if they continue to ill-treat you unjustly, be very humble, since the punishment I reserved for them will be fire; you ought to expect repulse and set-backs, for sin has gained a hold over them .... continue to declare the greatness of My Name to every nation, I am sending you, so 'lo tedhal!' 5 yes, do not fear! 6 "I will continue to pour out My Holy Spirit on you all and display the greatness of My Love; have you not read: "when new wine is found in a bunch of grapes people say: 'do not destroy it, it contains a blessing'"; 7 I shall do the same for the sake of those who serve Me in righteousness and are obedient to the one8 who holds back this Rebellion in My House; "I refuse to destroy the whole; but trouble for the bloodstained hands! and you, you who have taken the position of sentry to prohibit My Holy Spirit from entering in His territory, I will send the most barbarous of the nations to surround you; I shall drop in your desert a fire of fury, with a cloud that will cover your cities: thus your dark epoch will come to an end ...." My Lord, what is to be the outcome? the outcome? the outcome will be My Promise: the New Heavens and the New Earth .... Rome, who had ever shown such determination as Mine, to save you? My glory is rising on you, though night still covers you, above you My splendour appears; how is it that you cannot tell the times nor the signs? I have not yet heard from My House their cry of repentance; even now they are not listening but lay traps for My mouthpieces; were they to listen and repent they would be able to turn many from their evil ways and from the wickedness of their deeds that brought them to apostatise! they never pause to consider that I know about all their wickedness and so not until they come to confess their guilt and seek My Holy Spirit, will I relent .... come, daughter, let us go; 4 Jn. 8:47. 5 'Lo tedhal', in Aramaic, means: 'Do not fear!' 6 Continuation of Rome's message. 7 Is. 65:8. 8 The Pope. http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/891/
Sorry CD, I was meaning the catalogue of Vatican errors, not errors in your synopsis.... Now whether all the problems you listed are the result of Vatican errors, that's a different question!
The Catholic definition: Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751] I agree with you David that there probably are many people who are actually in schism today, but are unaware of their state. Of course none of us here is qualified to judge any individual person, but I would say that anyone who calls the pope "Bergoglio" is on dangerous ground. It is in effect refusing to use his title and is that not a soft kind of refusal of the acceptance of his authority? Let us be clear though, Schism is not simply disagreeing with the Pope. We are not robots. It is the refusal to accept him as head of the Church and refusing his authority. As much as I hate to say it, I disagree with you on your last point. I do think a formal schism is very possible. It is not something in any way to be desired, but I do think that it could very easily happen. You cannot have 2 very different belief systems in the same Church. You and I David, for example, both have our origins of thought in Catholicism, but if we are being totally honest we really do not share the same faith. And that is truly the greatest tragedy...
This is true but, nevertheless we share the same baptism! We need to recognize that while it is easy to say a group of people may share the same faith, the reality is always more nuanced. Although a group of faithful Catholics may consider they share the same faith, the truth is only God can know how similar their faith is! UItimately it doesn't matter that a group of traditionalists (for example) agree on their beliefs. What they actually believe in their hearts (or even in their minds!), only God can know. This is why Christian Unity is so important. Those who are baptised need to see their fellow Christians as brothers in the Lord. Yes, we may have different beliefs and understandings but we believe in Jesus!
While it is true that all validly baptized Christians are in a sense members of the One True Church regardless of their "denomination", I guess I do not share your optimism, though in my heart I would like to. I think many, if not most, people today will find their way to Hell. That road is wide and easy. Of course God is the only judge of these things and I am sure we will all be surprised at some who may find their way to Heaven. Perhaps also being surprised at some who do not. And yes Christian unity is important. That is what Our Lord would want, as long as it is not at the expense of sound doctrine.
It's not the Schism, War or Civil War that is joyful it's the aftermath! There was nothing Joyful about the US Civil War, WWII or the Cold War but the aftermath of Freedom, Reunification and the Collapse of Evil Entities. We believe as Christians that The Lord's Will will be done and the aftermath ... Glory!! The road to that Glory has a 2000 year history of division, blood, tears and sacrifice. It will be no different for this generation of The Faithful! GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
It seems to me that it is precisely because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ that the Dubia and Cardinals have acted so slowly. Nobody wants division, and everyone wishes to act with charity in seeking clarity of the teachings of Pope Francis. After all he is our Sheppard in these times.
As a person who follows approved and some alleged messages, I do not recall one that speaks of a schism taking place. I do read in prophecy that the church structuers that we all know will fall, including the Vatican. This lends me to believe that God will allow an event to take place before any formal schism could takes place. This does not preclude the persecution of the Church and the Church being split in an informal way. The warning will determine who remains faithful in the end and who sides with the Antichrist and False Prophet or Antipope. It will not be a schism, but a total collapse of the Church we know now. The church will become very small but very holy as Pope Benedict foretold. There will always remain the true Church founded on Christ and his unchanging truths.
Actually, David, it's very likely you wouldn't be interpreting Jesus at all if Vassula Ryden is your source.
This is what Our Blessed Mother told Fr. Gobbi (Marian Movement of Priests) about a schism: #352, May 17,1987 – Washington DC, USA: “Bishops of the holy Church of God, return to a full, humble and total unity with the Pope, because today you are running the danger of a most grave schism and because of this how great is your responsibility before God!” #375, Feb. 25, 1988 – Sao Paulo Brazil: “Schism and apostasy are menacing today the Church which lives in this nation of yours.” #385, June 29, 1988 – Knock Ireland: “The heart of the Pope is bleeding today because of one bishop of the holy Church of God who, through an arbitrary episcopal ordination carried out against his (the Pope’s) will, is opening up a painful schism in the Catholic Church.” #437, Nov. 15, 1990 – Malvern PA, USA: “How great is your responsibility O pastors of the holy Church of God! You continue along the path of division from the Pope and of the rejection of his Magisterium; indeed, in a hidden way, there is in preparation a true schism which could soon become open and proclaimed. And then, there will remain only a small faithful remnant…” #486, Jan. 1, 1993 – Rubbio Italy: “The hour of its great trial has above all come for the Church, because it will be shaken by the lack of faith, obscured by apostasy, wounded by betrayal, abandoned by its children, divided by schisms, possessed and dominated by Freemasonry, turned into fertile soil from which will spring up the wicked tree of the man of iniquity, the Antichrist, who will begin his kingdom into its interior.” #501, Sept. 15, 1993 – Tokyo Japan: “ The apostasy and the great schism in the Church is on the point of taking place, and the great chastisement about which I foretold you in this place, is now at the very doors.” #539, Mar 11, 1995 – Fatima, Portugal: “In the Church, the great apostasy, which will spread throughout the whole world, will be brought to its completion; the schism will take place though a general alienation from the Gospel and from the true faith.” #565, Feb. 22, 1996- Cuzco, Peru: “The powers of hell will not prevail, despite the fact that satan has broken loose, sowing divisions and schisms, these deep wounds which have shattered the unity of the Church, the Mystical Body of my Son Jesus. All the various Christian confessions, which in the course of the centuries have separated themselves from the Catholic Church, represents victory of the Adversary against the unity of the Church, that unity willed by Christ and ardently implored of the Father. And now the effort is being made to rectify all these errors by walking the path of reconciliation and ecumenism. However, the coming together of all the Christian confessions in the Catholic Church will take place with the triumph of my Immaculate Heart in the world.” Discern for yourselves - is this happening in our days? For those who do not believe in Fr. Gobbi’s messages, I would suggest you find Mother Angelica’s interview with this most humble Priest when she interviewed him on her show. He was on his knees in front of Mother while holding Our Lady’s statue and praying to her for us. “For the Lord doth nothing without revealing His secret to His servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7
