I have been watching this thread from the sidelines finding everyone take on this issue quite interesting and informative. However this is starting to sound like a schoolyard fight. Sorry maybe its just the mother in me coming out. But aren't we called to live the example. God will hold us responsible for our actions and omissions of action, I certainly would not want the guilt of leading a soul down the wrong path whether I was in agreement or not. Shouldn't we be saying lets make things right in the eye of God. Sorry not trying to point the finger at anyone, sometimes we get so wrap up in the argument, we lose sight of the original goal here. This is a forum about the Mother of God, and she lead by example. Was her marriage valid?? I certainly would not question that one.
On the thread 'Consecration of Russia', Martina posted the following video: A partial transcript is as follows: Amoris Laetitia - "It can no longer simply be said that all those in any irregular situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace." Rephrasing that - Pope Francis is telling us that it can no longer be said that those who insist upon persevering in adultery, persevering in fornication, persevering in homosexual activity, that they are in a state of mortal sin, which by definition means the loss of sanctifying grace. This exhortation of Pope Francis (AL) does not represent the grace filled, life giving words of Christ as expressed through His Vicar. Amoris Laetitia contains the seductive lies of His adversary (Satan) - the same that leads to eternal death In the face of this heresy, let's look to the Council of Trent (6th session, Chapter 15) for dogmatic clarity - It is to be maintained that the received grace of justification is lost by any mortal sin whatever (thus defending the doctrine of the divine law which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also, who are fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind (those who engage in homosexual acts)... [Council of Trent CHAPTER XV. That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith. In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.] My comment - In other words, what Pope Francis says is totally opposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church, as defined by the 'Holy Spirit inspired' decrees from the Council of Trent.
Answer by Fr. John Echert on 10/6/2001: Both the Gospels and Epistles teach us that fraternal correction of a fellow Christian is appropriate and in some cases even an obligation. In the case of a fellow Christian who sins against us, our Lord teaches the following, as recorded in the Gospel of St. Matthew: 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. The correction of a fellow Christian must proceed from the motive of charity and not self-righteous judgment, as we read elsewhere in this same Gospel: 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, —Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Clearly our Lord was not precluding all judgments but He requires that we act out of proper motives. St. Paul addresses the issue of fraternal correction—by non association--of other members of the Christian community who are living in a manner radically incompatible with Christ: 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral men; 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 5:11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber -- not even to eat with such a one. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 5:13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you." As to when and how to exercise fraternal correction, this requires not only a correct motive but also the exercise of prudence. St. Paul did not regard Christians as obliged to correct non-believers in the same manner in which we are to correct fellow Christians. And his correction of fellow Christians was accomplished by a form of isolation from the immoral, so as not to be wrongly influenced and as a witness against such a fallen believer. In some cases but not necessarily all, this might be a course of action for us as well, especially with regards to friendships. The problem today is that so many baptized Christians have so badly been corrupted by fallen secular values that their consciences are terribly dulled. I would not look to convert an entire campus but work one by one in the cases of those for whom there is some reasonable hope of conversion and with whom you have some sort of rapport. Beyond that, pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you in this matter and to provide the grace that is necessary to effect any change for the good. © Father Echert COPYRIGHT 2017 http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=330320&Pg=&Pgnu=1&recnu=
My point was that it seemed like some of you in this discussion were resorting to just about saying anything to prove your point of view. At what point do you stop and say enough, "I am starting to lose sight of the point of this forum". Would you go so far as to question the Blessed Mother? Thats all, not that we should ever bring that her marriage into the discussion. The Blessed Mother is and should always be our role model, and has taught us to lead by example.
You are right SoC, it is never a bad idea to remind ourselves to stop and take a breath and realize that we are all supposed to be on the same side I understand how hard it can be at times though. People are defending the foundations of the faith and so there are very serious issues at stake. I get drawn up into some of these roundabouts as well. We should all remember though that Our Lady should be our role model as this forum is dedicated to Her. Just as we are all in Padraig's living room here, we are also in Our Lady's living room as well.
By her motherhood, Mary shows us that humility and tenderness are not virtues of the weak but of the strong. She teaches us that we do not have to mistreat others in order to feel important. (Pope Francis at the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, 1 January 2017.) Nice!
Two things... 1] A couple who are cohabitating without civil marriage have a 'contractual marriage between each other; meaning not witnessed formally'...... otherwise known as a defacto marriage. 2] I am not misrepresenting Catholic teaching in regards to Gods graces or His goodness even to sinners! Catholics honour the saints as heroes and heroines in faith. We look to their stories for inspiration to live holy and virtuous lives. Many saints were righteous and good throughout their time on earth, but quite a few were serious sinners before experiencing their conversion. And surprisingly some of these conversions were gradual because they first recieved a small grace and then acted on that and then recieved other small graces and then acted on those! St. Augustine is probably the most famous saint with a sinful past. This famous son of St Monica was born in Africa and spent many years of his life in wicked living and in false beliefs. Though he was one of the most intelligent men who ever lived and though he had been brought up a Christian, his sins of impurity and his pride darkened his mind so much, that he could not see or understand the Divine Truth anymore. Through the prayers of his holy mother and the marvelous preaching of St. Ambrose, Augustine finally became convinced that Christinity was the one true religion. Yet he did not become a Christian then he continued in his sinful ways but it was a small grace. He fathered an illegitimate son with his young mistress, whom he abandoned at the prospect of marrying an heiress. It wasn't until he heard about two men who had suddenly been converted on reading the life of St. Antony, and he felt terrible ashamed of himself. Another small grace. Eventually Augustine became a priest who related his story in a volume titled Confessions, which is still widely read and referenced today. St. Augustine is considered a Doctor of the Church. St. Mary of Egypt: Prostitute At the early age of twelve Mary left her home and came to Alexandria, where for upwards of seventeen years she led a life of public prostitution. At the end of that time, she decided to take a pilgrimage to Jerusalem [Just a small grace] for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, she embarked for Palestine, in the hope that life on board ship would afford her new and abundant opportunities of gratifying an insatiable lust. In Jerusalem she persisted in her shameless life, and on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross joined the crowds towards the church, hoping to meet in the gathering some new victims whom she might allure into sin. When she reached the church door, she suddenly felt herself repelled by some secret force, [a small grace?] and having vainly attempted three or four times to enter, she retired to a corner of the churchyard, and was struck with remorse for her wicked life, [a small grace] which she recognized as the cause of her exclusion from the church. Bursting into bitter tears and beating her breast, [a small grace]she began to bewail her sins. Her eyes then fell upon a statue of the Blessed Virgin [a small grace] above the spot where she was standing, and in faith and humility of heart [a small grace]she besought Our Lady for help, and permission to enter the church and venerate the sacred wood on which Jesus had suffered, promising that if her request were granted, she would then renounce forever the world and its ways, and forthwith depart whithersoever Our Lady might lead her. Lots of small graces add up and turn lives around. Isn't God Good! This is Catholic teaching! “There is no saint without a past, no sinner without a future.” - St. Augustine of Hippo
I assume a "small grace" means what the Church calls "actual grace". Everyone receives actual grace from God through their whole life. The key is whether one cooperates with it. Many don't and end up in hell. Some do and end up in heaven. This is why we continue to pray for all souls on earth, as we don't know who will cooperate with actual grace and who will reject it. However, assuming that living in fornication, adultery or sodomy is a grace is heresy. Grace is opposed to sin. Yes they will receive actual grace, but many never allow this seed to grow and continue to live and die in mortal sin.
This article explains this whole issue really well, the opinions on both sides, and it just makes it really clear that the solution to give remarried divorcees communion is simply in total contradiction with Church teaching on marriage and that the contradiction was also never addressed by Amoris because there is no way to solve it - you just can't serve two master at once, remember that passage? From a Swedish scholar: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2017/04/the-two-faces-of-amoris-laetitia In Rome next April 22 there will be a whole panel discussion about this with speakers such Anna Silvas from Australia, a professor who paper was discussed in this forum: http://lanuovabq.it/it/articoli-fare-chiarezza-il-programma-del-convegno-19453.htm
The thing that Pope Francis and his followers ignore is what scripture itself teaches on receiving Eucharist in the state of mortal sin. Scripture itself does not seem to mean much to those within the social justice only and false mercy crowd. 1 Corinthians 11:27 "Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord".
Is that what the Holy Father said.......... that living in fornication, adultery or sodomy is a grace? Didn't he say that they had the small actual grace of fidelity! I agree he should of chose his words better and said something like........... with the small grace of fidelity this hopoeully will lead to sacramental marriage. But then again I don't speak Argentinen or Italian and can not know for sure who translated his words to English and whether they may have got part of the translation wrong. So you are probably right if he said or implyed...... living in fornication, adultery or sodomy is a grace, than thats heresy!!! and going by that he is a heretic.
I can only speak for myself when I say, it seems most in the world and in the church and some on MOG forum are confused with actual grace vs sanctifying grace. For this reason, I for one, feel it is important to teach truth by clearly defining Catholic doctrine if/when possible. For those who want to know the truth, it should not be difficult to find it either through scripture, the magisterium of the church, church council documents, the Catholic Catechism and the Catholic dictionary. Anyone preaching false mercy will be held accountable, as it leads others who are less developed in the faith into confusion and half truths. This is not from God.
Surely you have read what he said. He did not say, actual grace and he did not say sanctifying grace. He said he sees "grace" in co-habitation (ie. fornication). Then called it a real marriage. Grace in the act of mortal sin?????? What!!!! This is so contrary to what with commandments of the Father and the Gospel teachings of Jesus, the writings of his apostles, 2000 years of magisterial teachings and what the Catholic Catechism teaches..... how can anyone spin what he has said into a virtue is not looking for truth.
I'm not arguing with you. He is obviously a heretic! He didn't quantify what grace it was, and of course the small graces that even St Augustine recieved even though he was still cohabitating with mistresses were really not graces as St Augustine continued.... as you put it "in the act of mortal sin??????" So I agree no graces were given by God, because these sinful fornicators continued in their acts of Mortal sin. And I expect that all the graces were actually given in one heap, when and only at the moment of repentance and conversion. Point taken.
From the principal document of Second Vatican Council, Dei Verbum, which is a dogmatic one, it just says it all in the first paragraph: 1. Hearing the word of God with reverence and proclaiming it with faith, the sacred synod takes its direction from these words of St. John: "We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:2-3). Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love. (1) So this is the attitude we are called to have before the teaching of the Church about marriage, which was handed over to this generation by a great Saint, one that transpired the Holy Spirit wherever he went. He was a contemporary Saint and also a pope, and he did not dare to create 'new developments' or 'openings' of the teaching he had received, instead he announced to us those teachings as he received them along with a tremendous concern for the pastoral care of broken families because he knew the force of grace can transform any human being to live in accordance with God's will - because for the Grace of God there are NO IMPOSSIBLE SITUATIONS! That is the example that Benedict followed, which is in clear contrast with an attitude of 'new developments' and 'pastoral progress'. It is the teaching of the Church and the Word that will cause True 'new developments' and new 'openings' (to Christ!) in this our blind and proud generation, but 'new developments' to adapt the teaching we received from Mother Church to a society that does not believe in God and has disdain for the family cannot produce any fruit. Jesus didn't die in the cross and resurrect to accomodate what he received from the Father to the society of his time. His teaching, his life, far from adapting to the situation of his time, cut through that society's superstitious mentality, blind scapegoating of victims, cruel institutions and deadly laws (such as divorce!) like a scalpel cuts through the skin. 'New developments' come from man and not from the Holy Spirit, isn't that why Paul says if someone teaches you anything new, even if he is an angel from heaven, let him be anathema?
