My two cents.... As I would certainly consider myself a novice at discernment about these or any of the other messages from other people, I could not comment on whether something did or did not come from Jesus or Mary. The stigmata and the bleeding crucifixes' do however lend a lot of credibility in my opinion. I also ponder about what I would do if I was the one receiving messages, as well as other signs. If I was told to go and proclaim these messages, was told I would be scorned and ridiculed, would I have the fortitude to abandon my life as I know it and create a full time apostolate. It does not appear to be any financial or other secular motive, other than the limelight which is what brings on the scorn and ridicule. The seemingly abundance of messages in the last 50 years from all parts of the world is also what gets my attention. Most have the ring of bringing people back, and to pray, and to keep the sacraments. Whether something happens this year, next year, 2023, 2030, or whenever- the messages are all trying to bring us back to God, and the sooner the better.
That testimony do not prove anything. There are some elements in this revelation which is likely other false private revelations. And also there are some elements that is present in a true revelation. The content of some messages seems to be from Heaven. This kind of signals is possible to be from hell or heaven. blood, visions etc. all of that do not prove anything. For example, Pedro Regis has a opinion that demons are so powerful now that all apparitions with blood, stigmatas and lot of signals is from hell. We have to understand that today this sort of signals is more probably to be false than true. "false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. I have told you beforehand." On the other hand, there is a kind of threat in this comment that is always present in groups of false prophets. If luz de maria is from God this discussion will not disturb her mission. it is not necessary threats. There is no scorn here. That is a exaggerated victimization... there is a possibility of this to be false.
For these writings will renew the Face of the Earth and provide the certain means for the return of mankind to the original spiritual state of our first parents, Adam and Eve. p. 17: Those who will welcome it with love will be the first fortunate children to belong to the Kingdom of the divine Fiat." But priests who work against it will be punished.https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=108 So if you believe that then you will have to spare a prayer for Fr Hardon.
Mac, do you know what "Newsletter" is referred to in the full quote (provided below) from Father Most's article? Luisa Piccarreta did not publish a newsletter. Can you point to where "priests who work against it will be punished" is found in Luisa's writings? 7. The Newsletter on p. 2:For years and Years the Writings which are to renew the face of the earth ,the Writings which will bring a glorious New Era for the World, the Writings which disclose the Original Purpose for which God created us, the Writings which are given to the world in 36 volumes known as "the Book of Heaven" have not received their deserved attention. ....It is our opinion that this unveiling of the original words of the "Book of Heaven" was a greater event than Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with the ten commandments. For these writings will renew the Face of the Earth and provide the certain means for the return of mankind to the original spiritual state of our first parents, Adam and Eve. p. 17: Those who will welcome it with love will be the first fortunate children to belong to the Kingdom of the divine Fiat." But priests who work against it will be punished.
Hi POP, As a lot of this is still somewhat new to me, I'm asking purely for my own edification. What in the messages do you see as similar to other false private revelations? Also, are you saying that these and other stigmata, bleeding crucifixes, oils, tears, odors, etc. could all be the work of demons? I may be naive about this, but I have trouble believing God would allow this, especially statues of his Son or the BVM. If I also may ask, what in the messages would be "leading us astray?" They all appear to me to be leading us towards God and not away. I can't seem to see where they are somehow deceiving us, unless the parts of the world are being mentioned to distract us from where the real troubles will begin. Finally, I couldn't really find anything I saw as an overt threat, more I felt like they were warnings. They come across more as an urgency to heed them before it is too late. They seem like the harsh scolding of a parent, trying to keep their children from further danger or trouble. My intention is for education, not debate. Thanks, and God Bless.
Again, it takes no effort and no reasoning to be against something. Being open to prophecy, especially in the end-times is biblical to the point we are told "do not despise prophecy, but test it and retain what is good". I would take these biblical warnings with due respect, as working against God's messengers won't go well for the naysayers. One does not have to accept private prophecy, but it would do well to keep silent where silence is warranted, lest we work against the Spirit of God and the Blessed Mother. Amos 3:7 "for surely the Lord God does nothing without revealing his plans to his prophets his messengers". God is the same yesterday, to day and always. His plans are being revealed to all who have ears to hear. He continues to speak through messengers today and perhaps more so than ever. Yes, there are false prophets, but with prayer and understanding of truth they eventually revealed.
No and no. But I like that Fr Most. Are you suggesting he has made it all up? The late Fr. William G. Most was one of the most distinguished Catholic teachers, theologians and Scripture scholars of our time. His long teaching career, extending well over 50 years, was marked by unswerving fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church, theological brilliance, and an ability to communicate clearly to layman and professional alike. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/
First: long and frequent locutions that alternate between Jesus, Mary and angels or saints. This is an archetype of false revelations. Most false revelations has this. Second: yes, exactly. God permits even an abortion, why God would not permit false wonders? There are numerous cases of false signals like that in history. The Bible says it is possible and shows examples. Third: I will give a recent example. People who followed locutions to the world. There were beautiful messages there. In the beginning there were some good messages that really nourished people. The locutions gained the confidence of people for many years... and one day released a false prophecy that make a great number of false prophets (people who believed that a great event was to occur and spreads that prophecy. In the end nothing happened). Fourth: There are good messages in it too. Some of them really nourished me. But good messages was always present even in false revelations. Last: this type of defense was never necessary for a true seer. We are open to discuss private revelation. And that is we are doing here. It is an archetype of false revelation a necessity to defend the seer or doing threats. In the end times we have to have in mind this: ""false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. I have told you beforehand." Everything is possible.
You have not provided one shred of information or evidence on Luz De Maria being a false prophet, outside of rehtoric. Fatima had angels and saints in their visions. Maybe they are false too by your criteria? No one with credibility in this area of study would dismiss an alleged messenger on your listed criteria. I think her priest spiritual directors and her many messages speak to her authenticity far greater the any naysayer. I suspect you may have been one of those who were dupped by LTTW messages so you are still stinging from that and dismiss all alleged messages now.
Please take the time to watch the following video, is in Spanish and Italian but I have posted a translated transcript bellow. Giorgio: I will translate, she speaks Spanish. Giorgio: Luz whatever you feel like saying, especially a message of the Vrgin who is most precious to you and to all. LM: A hug for everyone in the name of Christ and the Blessed Mother, for me it is a blessing to share with Giorgio on this special day, 23 years of his stigmatization. It is not just another conference, for me is completely significant in the spiritual sense, because I wonder and ask each one of you …continuously. (Holding Giorgio´s hand) Why Christ is still suffering and manifesting here on earth? Is it because humanity is doing well? Or, because every day we get closer to the fruit of our own evil deeds. The Blessed Mother, in all the messages but especially in the last ones, calls us to a total and absolute conversion. This is a total and absolute adherence to her son Christ; it is not only to say that I believe, it is a response to praxis that is practice of the Gospel. The mother tells me; Love, be an expert in love and everything else will be added unto you, but experts in love, in Christic love (Amor Cristico) not in the love that exudes humanity which is a disguised love. She invites us continuously, to be a living testimony of the works and acts of his son Jesus Christ, Christ needs faithful people, not people united to a particular Church or a religious denomination, he needs people (humanity) formed in his love, in Christic Love and the love of the Blessed Mother who has always been the first disciple of her son. She continues appearing and reveling the word of his son. She continues to be present and will be present until the end times. And She…. Her son has entrusted to her this generation of which we form a part. It is so much the pain of the mother that 4 days ago she said to me: I suffered much at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and suffered for the evil committed in Sodom and Gomorrah. This takes us back in history; it makes us go deeper into the fact that Maria has been present with humanity, since the beginning of humanity just like his son. And she told me: this generation makes me suffer more than the generation of Sodom and Gomorrah. She showed me a vision where the Earth was surrounded by demons but they were not entering the Earth. And I asked the Mother… Mother why the demons are not entering? And she said: The devil no longer needs to tempt man, he is outside of Earth, tranquil because Man has already exceeded its way of sinning. We are here at this moment (instant) by Christic Will, because each and one of us is a fundamental part of this big puzzle that is the Christic Will. We are not here by chance; we are here because we have been called to bear witness to the presence of Christ and the continuous presence of the mother here on Earth. I cannot conceive, I cannot imagine a son without a mother, never. That is why I cannot conceive a person who calls himself Christic…Christian, if that person does not love Mary, because she takes us to her son. And because she was entrusted this generation, she is leading us to that moment of the second coming of Jesus. We have to change our conscious, not to be one more of the World, we know more and those whom much is given much is expected. That is why we must be united and form an impenetrable wall, the weapon the devil is using is division, we cannot allow division in any Arca ( Group of Giorgios followers ) or any Grupo Espiritual ( Spiritual Group). Everyone has to be aware that we are an instrument of Christic Love and Christic unity.
If you pay more atention I did not mention aparitions. I use this criteria to long and frequent locutions that alternate between Jesus, Mary, and saints or angels. If you search about that you will understand what I am talking about. but even in Fátima the visions have nothing to do with my criteria.
You give four criteria for the discernment of False Phenomena: 'First: long and frequent locutions that alternate between Jesus, Mary and angels or saints. This is an archetype of false revelations. Most false revelations has this.' In the first place long correspondance/locutions between mystics and heaven are in fact very,very common; some of them lasting as enitre life time. A for instance Saint Faustina of the Divne Mercy. Whose loctutions were ongoing. Sister Lucia of Fatima is another she had again ongoing apparitions/ loctions long, long after Fatima. St Catherine of Siena who had loctuions right through her life..and on and on and on. Again many , many saints had frequent locutions, again I instance the DOnctors of the Church St Teresa of avila and St Catherine of Siena. I am lost as to why it is alright to have locutions of, say Jesus but not additionally of Mary and angles. So many saints had all three types. Of course there have been instances of false ones of these types. How could there not be? We should expect this. But there are numerous instances of authentic ones of the same type to the saints.
Second: yes, exactly. God permits even an abortion, why God would not permit false wonders? There are numerous cases of false signals like that in history. The Bible says it is possible and shows examples. Why yes of course God permits false wonders. of course He does , this is peerfectly Scriptural since it is written: 2 Corinthians 11:14 Paul and the False Apostles …13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.… But , I am sorry, what has this to do with the price of bread? the fact there are false wonders does not mean that in this instance false wonders actually took place. If we were simply to say, as you appear to that God permit false wonders and leave it at that then by the same logic we would reject Lourdes , Fatima and so on.... If on the other hand you had mentioned False WOnders and qulaified this by adding the criteria of Christ Himself: Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ...this criteria would, with this qualification, have been apposite and stood on its own. But as it is , it is like a chicken with one leg and tends to fall over without the other leg View attachment 4861
Regarding Patty78's post/transcript above, if you look through this thread, you'll see that we have already discussed the video with Giorgio Bongiovanni, concerning which I questioned Luz de Maria by e-mail and about which she then replied directly. She was very insistent that she now has no association with Giorgio B.- she made an invited 15 minute presentation at this meeting in Catania in September 2012 without realizing it would be filmed (it is still on Bongiovanni's website) or the way in which it would subsequently be used in evidence against her. In essence, I view it as an attempt, admittedly perhaps a naïve one, at Christian outreach to a specific community in their vocabulary , which is an approach that I can understand (remember that St Paul tried this in his Areopagus speech when he tried to convince the Athenians that they already venerated the God of Israel as their 'unknown God'). Just this week I was talking with a colleague who had been invited to engage in pastoral work with New Age/'spiritual but not religious' types in the diocese of Lyon about the potential and challenges of such outreach. It is certainly fraught with difficulties, not least because of the way in which Christian vocabulary has been hijacked by the New Age community, but to dismiss it would be to imply that God does not care about what is a substantial and growing group of people in the Western nations. Those who have read Luz de Maria's published messages and commentaries in which she is not making a 'guest appearance' will quickly see that her own theology is orthodox and has nothing to do with New Age doctrine. When she here uses the term 'Christic' it is clear that she means 'Christian', even if some New Agers/Jungians et al. may interpret the word in terms of some kind of internal 'Christ-consciousness' having nothing to do with the historical person of Jesus. OK, I consider the remark about Mary and Sodom/Gomorrah to be an error on Luz de Maria's part. But my reaction to this is 'so what?' because I don't expect infallibility from God's 'messengers'. Nor do I consider that one mistake is sufficient to judge the totality of someone's material, just as I don't agree with the Dominican François-Marie Dermine who considered that he had delivered a knock-out punch to another well-known alleged visionary when he proved on the basis of manuscript photostats that she initially reported Jesus as saying to her that he would bring Protestants to their knees 'to worship my mother' (which she subsequently rightly corrected to 'venerate'). If I followed that kind of 'one-strike-and-you're-out' methodology I would have to consider St Catherine of Siena a false prophet for having had a vision in which Our Lady supposedly denied her immaculate conception! All these instances prove is that mystics are fallible human beings like the rest of us. People who expect anything else from alleged prophets and visionaries probably shouldn't be reading private revelation in the first place and need to examine their own expectations. In her defence, this comment of Luz de Maria's didn't find its way into her published 2012 locutions, a fact which in my opinion speaks positively of the collective discernment process of her team. This all brings to mind an incident last year when I attended a French-language presentation by a purported seer whom I greatly respect and whose meetings are characterized by purported locutions in ecstasy (I was witness to one of these) which are subsequently published after being assessed by her spiritual director. At the outset, following a prayer in which the power of the Blood of Christ was invoked by all present against possible demonic interference, she specifically asked that there should be no recording or even note-taking. 'What if what I say contains mistakes?', she asked - which was both humble and realistic. Before throwing stones, I would simply ask the critics this - remembering that Luz de Maria did not anticipate that this would be filmed, what would happen if everything we say were recorded without our knowledge and then broadcast to the world?[/quote]
May I add that there are actually some objective ways to test signs and wonders. Laboratory examination is an obvious example: this was critical in the case of Akita, as the wild hypothesis put forward by one Diocesan consultant that Sr Agnes Sasagawa was actually making the statue of Our Lady weep her own blood by alleged parapsychological powers was conclusively ruled out after it was discovered that the blood types were different. There are other possible methods of evaluation, however: regarding supposed miraculous oil emanating from icons/images, does this have healing properties (as has been the case in Soufanieh)? What happens if the oil is applied to a demon-possessed person during an exorcism? - a procedure that was cited in defence of the authenticity of the 'Lily Among the Thorns (Giglio tra le Spine) apparitions to an unnamed stigmatic in Italy who has been accompanied by leading exorcist Gabriele Amorth.
unfortunately we are talking about dfferent things. maybe is my fault because I do not speak english but I am trying to do my best. I am talking about a recent phenomena that is a kind a new age thing. false prophets of end times. they have locutions of Jesus, Mary, saints. and angels. most of cases is a woman locutionist etc. unfortunately sometimes we can see a reminescence of that in luz de maria locutions. but maybe more elaborated. so what I am trying to say is we have to be careful with this. there are elements that makes this case not so simple.
VISION THAT OUR LORD SHARED WITH LUZ DE MARÍA 20 APRIL 2016 I saw the construction of two totally equal buildings: same plans, same materials, same foundation. The people building them were very similar in dress, gestures, kindness, in the way they moved around, and in the courtesy extended to their brothers. I saw both buildings and admired the structures of both as well as the people who were building them. I felt overwhelmed and no matter how hard I looked for differences, I could not find them. Christ asked me to continue watching. Everything looked the same, so much so that I could not even see a difference in the details. From an instant to another, the persons that were in one of the buildings got angry and stopped helping one another the way they doing before. Fraternity broke and everyone looked at himself; then I noticed differences because they stopped putting all effort into the building, they no longer prepared the materials with as much care as before, and they worked secretly. When a brother was looking at them they pretended to work well; when nobody was looking, they worked carelessly. When the construction of both buildings was finished, Christ touched one of them and it lit up; Christ also touched the other one, but it collapsed. Christ said to me: “Daughter, look at this carefully. There are children who are committed and there are children who live of appearances; they seem to be the same and to do the same work, and they seem to give the same, but it is not so. They are so difficult to differentiate that it is only in the small details—the small details that make great those who are small—that they can be differentiated; and the small detail is MY LOVE present in them. They work together with their brothers.” I continued to look and the persons were no longer the same as before. They had reacted differently from their appearances. Faced with something unexpected, they had transformed into creatures that were unknown in comparison with the creatures I had watched act and work before. Christ said to me: “I have called you not to trust appearances; this is what happens at the present; it seems little but it is very important. This is how the enemy encysts in My children; he enters slowly with people who seem to do good and do not, people who seem to know everything and know nothing; they seem and nothing else; they seem… Each brick in those buildings has been carefully placed because they have My Love, but man fancies temporary things and woman fancies to be abused by man; they have neglected the Love, the Love I bequeathed to them. Beloved daughter, two buildings can seem to be the same in every way. But inside, those who live in them are not the same. In those buildings the same tenants will not fructify. The first building was weak, and its structure was harmed the instant when anger and disunity entered, the tenants were as they pleased and did not respect one another, they lived of appearances and they allowed anything or anyone who arrived to enter. They had no rules, they did not even respect themselves, and they lived of appearances, appearing to be better within the society in order to be accepted by all. They passed over their brothers looking at them with contempt. When they were called, they took the path that was easiest for them; they did not even love themselves. Now, in the other building there were peace and harmony: My Spirit is welcome by all, modesty and decorum reigned everywhere; fraternity paralyzes any feeling foreign to My Will, they accept their brothers, and introduce them in My Love. That which seems the same is not the same; it is a hand of varnish. This way, My daughter, is how evil will enter My House, without seeming to be evil. There will be destruction; he will pass for good being bad. He will challenge My children in order to toss them into the fire. This way, those who are not prepared will fall because they will not recognize him.” The earth cracked open before my eyes and the foundations that supported the buildings were one and the same. A VOICE SAID: THEY REMAINED BLIND WITHOUT SEEING THE TRUTH OF MY WORD. And Christ said to me: “My daughter, this is how evil rises, seeming to be good to confuse men. One same foundation for the entire construction, but man with his greed has edified his own interests over what does not belong to him. For this reason, humankind will suffer, for man’s egotism and for his idolatry of materialism and of himself.” When Christ finished saying this, the land closed up. The bad building crumbled slowly, and I could see that each piece of the building that fell had names, sins against The Commandments, against the Sacraments, against the Deeds of Mercy, and against the Virtues. Each one of the pieces was attracted by a force coming from the earth and the earth swallowed it and these sins disappeared. Something shone in the Sky. I turned to look and I saw a Cross in the Sky, and in the Sky, the number 7. This is how the vision ended. Amen. * * * Summerfields comment: The "number 7 " could mean anything, but based on some other hints concerning expected events for this year, I'll conjecture that it could possibly mean the month of July.
