Restriction of another Medjugorje seer

Yes Richard absolutely obedience is very important but as I was proposing elsewhere obedience to Church authority should be interpreted narrowly and exactly, after that ones conscience and use of human reason etc take over?

It's a total guarantee at almost all apparition sites, including of course authentic ones, that you will find a general air of disapproval from Church authorities at least for a time. But that shouldn't put people off, only a specific clear instruction should be bowed down to I think.

And in this case you don't have such a thing, no clear statement that people should not go on pilgrimage there or receive sacraments there or whatever (from a legitimate Church authority, i.e. the party correctly in charge of the site at the time). If we do get such a statement then visionaries and the faithful should definitely abide by it but its unfair in the meantime to talk about either party being disobedient.​

 

I don't understand why you, Bella, are constantly attacking me and accusing me from something which is not true. I have never written here any 'made-up facts'. I have cited from Internet just like anybody else in this forum. I think Padraig should give you some kind of notice...

This is for you to read: http://www.medjugorje.com/your-petition.html
I'm not responsible for what is in that link. Ask the writer.

 

Every authentic apparition of the Mother of God has always given the local bishop a supernatural proof of authencity. This was the case at Lourdes and Fatima and every other approved apparition of the Blessed Mother. This is not the case at Medjugorje.

At Lourdes and Fatima the seers were obedient to the local church authorities. This was not the case at Medjugorje.

It is up to the local bishop - and, as as a last resort, the bishop of Rome - to determine if Mary is appearing at Medugorje. It is not up to the seers and it is not up to us to make that determination. The local bishop has spoken, the local bishops' conference has spoken and now we await the voice of the bishop of rome.

 

It is excatly as Richard67 wrote. Jesus said to St Faustina that she should be obedient to her superiors and confessor even if they were wrong. I love that!

 

'Every authentic apparition of the Mother of God has always given the local bishop a supernatural proof of authencity.'

Really?

 

Richard, you continue to flog a very dead horse! Nothing is going to change your mind but for the sake of those in the outside world who encounter this thread let me post again quite a good page on the position of the Church with regard to Medjugorje: - http://www.defendingmedjugorje.com/Pages/Church.htm

 

Yes, Really. Perhaps I should qualify that statement by not just restricting it to the local bishop but to any Church authority with responsibility for the alleged apparition.

I was not aware that Our Lady of Zion was deemed worthy of belief, but in any event Ratisbonne's conversion was deemed miraculous, as was the apparition itself, by the relevant Church authority - in Ratisbonne's case it was a canonical investigation by the Vatican that reached the verdict of "miraculous."

As far as I am aware, here are the only apparitions deemed worthy of belief by the Vatican:

Lourdes
Fatima
Guadalupe
Pontmain
Knock
La Salette
Laus
Rue du Bac
Beauraing
Banneux

 

Not at all there are many, more than this granted this is so how can you make such definitive statements concerning , 'Supernatural evidence', as you have?

I list in red sites you have not mentioned.

https://carm.org/what-are-the-approved-mary-apparitions-of-the-roman-catholic-church

1. 
   
   
   • Guadalupe, Mexico (1531)
     1. "Throughout the continent, from the time of the first evangelization, the presence of the Mother of God has been strongly felt, thanks to the efforts of the missionaries. In their preaching, “the Gospel was proclaimed by presenting the Virgin Mary as its highest realization. From the beginning--invoked as Our Lady of Guadalupe--Mary, by her motherly and merciful figure, was a great sign of the closeness of the Father and of Jesus Christ, with whom she invites us to enter into communion” (19) The appearance of Mary to the native Juan Diego on the hill of Tepeyac in 1531 had a decisive effect on evangelization." http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_22011999_ecclesia-in-america_en.html
   • Lezajsk, Poland (1578)
   • Siluva, Lithuania (1608)
     1. 
        
     2. "Letter to Card. Meisner, Special Envoy at the celebrations for the fourth centenary of the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Šiluva [Lithuania, 13-14 September 2008] (July 3, 2008)." http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2008/index_en.htm
   • Laus, France (1664)
     1. "On Sunday during a Mass celebrated in the town of Laus in the French Alps, Bishop Jean-Michel de Falco of Gap, accompanied by numerous cardinals and archbishops from around the world, announced the official approval of the Church of the Marian apparitions to Benôite (Benedicta) Rencurel between 1664 and 1718." http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican_recognizes_marian_apparitions_in_france/
     2. "Our Lady of Laus, approved on May 4, 2008" http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/expert_explains_churchs_criteria_for_confirming_marian_apparitions/
   • Rue du Bac, Paris, France (1830)
     1. "Among the various medals of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the most diffuse must be the "Miraculous Medal". Its origins go back to the apparitions in 1830 of Our Lady to St. Catherine Labouré, a humble novice of the Daughters of Charity in Paris." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html
   • Rome, Italy (1842)
   • La Salette, France (1846)
   • Lourdes, France (1858)
     1. "Apostolic Journey to France on the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Lourdes (September 12-15, 2008)." http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2008/index_francia_en.htm
   • Champion, Wisconsin (1859)
     1. 
        
     2. "On Dec. 8, 2010--the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception--the bishop decreed with “moral certainty” that the Virgin Mary had indeed appeared to a young Belgian immigrant woman, Adele Brise, on three occasions in October of 1859. Since 1861, the site of those apparitions has been home to a chapel dedicated to the Virgin Mary under her title “Our Lady of Good Help.” Following a two-year investigation of the alleged apparitions, Bishop Ricken proclaimed them “worthy of belief,” and confirmed his diocese's official recognition of the popular shrine." http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/wisconsin-chapel-approved-as-first-us-marian-apparition-site/
   • Filippsdorf, Czech Republic (1866)
   • Pontmain, France (1871)
   • Gietrzwald, Poland (1877)
   • Knock, Ireland (1879)
   • Fatima, Portugal (1917)
     1. "This solemn celebration concludes the mission the Holy Father has entrusted to me to represent him here in Fatima on the occasion of the 90th anniversary of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary to the three shepherd children at Cova da Iria. Yesterday was a Saturday, as was that 13 October 1917." http://www.vatican.va//roman_curia/secretariat_state/card-bertone/2007/documents/rc_seg-st_20071014_bertone-fatima_en.html
   • Beauraing, Belgium (1932)
   • Banneux, Belgium (1933)
     1. "LETTER OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOP OF LIÈGE ON THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE RECOGNITION OF THE APPARITIONS OF OUR LADY AT BANNEUX . . . In 1933, a few years before the Second World War, Mary appeared in Banneux as a messenger of peace." http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_19990731_banneux_en.html
   • Kibeho, Rwanda (1981)
     1. 
        
     2. "The Mother of Jesus wished to appear in your country to several children, reminding them of the efficacy of fasting and of prayer, especially the recitation of the Rosary." http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/april/documents/papa-francesco_20140403_ad-limina-rwanda.html

 

I find it extraordinary in particular that you did not mention Kibeho.:



Also the most recent of them all in Wisconsin .You appear to me to have a poor grasp of the subject matter on which you comment so definitivly?

Back to the books!!

 

I refer you, Richard to Bishop Rickens Declaration of the Authenticity of the genuiness of the apparitions in Wisconsin which makes no reference at all to supernatural, 'Proofs'?

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-ricken-why-i-approved-the-apparition

'Citing in his decree the continuous streams of faithful who have come to the shrine for over 150 years to pray to Jesus through the intercession of Our Lady of Good Help, the long tradition of answered prayers, the graces poured out through the sacraments, the character of the visionary, and the immediate and continuing effects and mandate of our Blessed Mother, Bishop Ricken decreed: “I declare with moral certainty and in accord with the norms of the Church that the events, apparitions and locutions given to Adele Brise in October of 1859 do exhibit the substance of supernatural character, and I do hereby approve these apparitions as worthy of belief (although not obligatory) by the Christian faithful.”'

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-ricken-why-i-approved-the-apparition/#ixzz3fu23QFpm

 

I must say in relation to mystical/ Marian phenomena although scholarship is not of course everything, the phrase, 'Half- cocked' , does spring to mind.

KNOW YOUR SUBJECT MATTER

before making absolute, definitive statements.


I'm sorry, I find this irritating.

 

Um, you kinda left out a few years there in between......that Commission headed by Cardinal Ruini appointed by Pope Benedict whose report after several years is still waiting for the CDF to even begin to study, maybe? They (Muller) have delayed, delayed, delayed while interfering with the formerly allowed visits of the visionaries to invited forums outside Medjugorje. Why confuse the public more at this point when they've failed to act on the appointed Commission's study themselves? Not a good example for the faithful for adhering to proper protocol and obedience....meanwhile the Pope is kept waiting. Perhaps to generate more public division and then attempt to blame such divided discussion on the devotion itself? The CDF/Muller....another great example of putting the cart before the horse! A bit of subterfuge?? Sure are a lot of little "popes" these days.

 

I love this example given about how the seer of Laus defended the Blessed Mother (and really herself) when the attempt to humiliate both was presented to her by the local authority's representative (esp. when similar explanations of what our lady of Medj had expressed to the visionaries have been challenged and their relaying such expressions given by our lady is said to be defiant):

On September 14, 1665, Father Antoine Lambert, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Embrunand most unsympathetic towards the apparitions, came to Laus in the company of several eminent priests, equally unsympathetic to the events at Laus, hoping to put an end to "this sorcery," prove Benoite guilty of a hoax, and shut down the chapel. When the poor shepherd girl heard that they had arrived, she was so afraid that she wanted to leave.

When the Father Antoine Lambert, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Embrunreached Laus, he entered the chapel to pray for a moment and then summoned the shepherd girl. Backed by his colleagues, he questioned Benoite haughtily, trying to trap her and make her contradict herself. She remained unruffled and answered him with simplicity and calm assurance. Her words were clear and surprisingly affirmative.

"Don't think I have come here to authorize your visions and illusions, and all the strange things that are being said about you and this place," the Vicar General said severely. "It is my conviction, as it is of everyone with any common sense, that your visions are false. Consequently, I am going to close down this chapel and prohibit the devotion. As for you, you have only to go back home."

Following the Blessed Virgin's inspiration, the shepherd girl answered him: "Sire, although you command God each morning and make Him come down to the altar by the power you received when you became a priest, you have no commands to give His holy Mother, who does as She pleases here."
In a few of today's ongoing apparition sites or messages given otherwise our Lady has been rather adamant that she "is going nowhere".....that she "is staying".....that we can have confidence in that!! Ha! Ha!

 

Yes and what supernatural sign did the bishop receive at Knock?

Anyhow I'm not trying to argue the toss on this but I just think sometimes people put actually too much store by Church approval in these cases? Most of the time the Church doesn't express any opinion as such on ongoing apparitions anyway, it just stays neutral thus allowing you to use your own God given judgement and conscience to arrive at your opinion on the issue?

 

There was never any doubt in the Bishop's mind that Knock was of supernatural origin. Perhaps that was the miracle. Generally, there always seems to be some doubt among Church authorities when someone comes claiming to have had a supernatural apparition. Sometimes it takes an overt, visible miracle to convince the authorities. But at Knock, there never seems to have been any doubt. The miracle was more subtle:

Within seven weeks a Commission composed of eminent ecclesiastics from the surrounding district was set up by the Archbishop of Tuam to investigate the event. The result of their deliberations, after taking the testimony of the witnesses, was that " the testimony of all, taken as a whole, was trustworthy and satisfactory." This declaration on the part of men to whom the witnesses were known, and who were qualified to pass judgment, is in itself an evidence by no means negligible. Not a single one of the original witnesses of the apparition ever doubted or recanted, not one of them ever denied the original testimony given, and the witness who first saw the apparition re-affirmed on her death-bed in 1936 her testimony of 1879. When her statement was read over to her, she made the following remarkable addition: " I make this statement on my death-bed, knowing I am about to go before my God." She was then an aged woman. But with her dying breath she affirmed the truth of what she had seen. - http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/KNOCK.htm

 

In some countries a death bed witness is given the same status as evidence given under oath. That's good enough for me. Taken with the witness of her good Catholic life and the support of her Church and Commumity its almost irrefutable. Just my view.

 

Yes, you would. Another Catholic crushed.

How often do you actually pray the Divine Mercy nowadays ?

 

Padraig. This person is waiting for you to remove me from the forum. He or she is offended by my opinions, So be it- we are waiting.....

Any minute now, I expect I'll be evicted. ................. tap, tap, tap, tappitty tap tap

Nope, hasn't happened yet.

Oh dear, no eviction yet. Bound to be soon.


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

No, as, if you read my comment, you will realise. I am saying that the MOG dos no have to do or say what you want.

Thanks for the big theology lecture, but you know, Mary already knows all of this. She's the MOG.

Bless you.

B

 

How do people explain all Vicka's suffering over the past 34 years if Medjugorje is false? She has had brain tumours, back tumours etc. and one time even gave doctors a note with a date saying when a brain tumour would no longer be there, and it turned out to be accurate. For someone who is "lying" she sure has gone through a lot of pain and suffering.