No, Pope Benedict never contradicted Bertone. BrianK tried to make this point with me yet was unable to properly document his assertion. Please see page 5 of the thread "Evil Empire or Russia Consecrated" in the Signs of the Times Forum, where this issue was thoroughly debated.
try the slooooooow read. Might open something new for you.......By the way Mac....the book is being put out to the public by the World Apostalate of Fatima(NOT GUNER) http://www.spiritdaily.com/Pathway2.htm....
For 30 years I followed the 'party line' as this is what I was taught through Father Fox (whom I knew personally) and the Blue Army's Soul magazine, which I subscribed to. I am a reasonable person and willing to listen to differing points of view. This video and many others like it are hard to argue with. Facts are just that. Spin is just that and what Christopher does as an articulate lawyer is bring light to the twisting of the truth. It is no wonder that Pope John Paul II was so heart broken when he tried to consecrate Russia in 1984 and he kept being told by the political voices around him that he could not name Russia. This is why, after our nightly family rosary, we pray for the Consecration of Russia and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to come. Truly, this must be part of the 'diabolical disorientation' that Sister Lucia spoke of.
Amen. This time is certainly marked by diabolical disorientation. It is evident everywhere one turns, in real life, in the pop culture, online, even here on MOG.
I think the simplest solution would be to ask one of the Medjugorje visionaries who still get daily apparitions, to ask Our lady if Russia has been consecrated or not. An answer from Our lady, should of course prevent any doubts. Other than that , I would like to see not just the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary but the Middle East and the European Union aswell. They seem to be causing more problems at the moment.
I know you dont really want to enter the debate Fatima, But can I ask what was the clincher for you ?
Ill try to take that advice onboard IJoP . It would not be the first time Ive made a quickdraw lunchtime comment and shot myself in the foot View attachment 2907
What part of post #248 are you struggling with? I did see you post this ... I woudn't be surprised if some years from now declassified materials come to light confirming the Cardinal's assertion. Well ,we have had some material come to light showing the Cardinal has deceived us some more .
So what am I missing here ? The partyline is .. All is revealed ...VATICAN CITY, SEPT. 24, 2007 ( Zenit.org)--There is no fourth secret of Fatima, and the third secret in its entirety has already been revealed, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone. The Partyline quotes Sr Lucia .... Sister Lucia replied: "Everything has been published; there are no more secrets." So Sr Lucia is a liar ? __________________________________________________ NEW BOOK BY NUNS WHO LIVED WITH FATIMA SEER REVEALS DRAMATIC, ADDITIONAL DETAILS PERTAINING TO PROPHECY IN FAMOUS 'THIRD SECRET'
There is no material showing "that the Cardinal has deceived us some more." The fixation with and demonization of Bertone is, at the very least, highly irrational. Basically, the argument of those demonizing Bertone goes something like this: the era of peace has not occurred, and Russia continues to be an impediment to the Western warmongers, therefore the Consecration of Russia must not have occurred and the Vatican must be lying to us, and there must be two Lucy's, etc., etc. The correct line of reasoning should start not with our own conclusion and opinions, but with official Vatican statements of fact. We would begin this line of reasoning by stuyding the official statements of the Vatican concerning Fatima, statments that I don't "struggle with" at all: "...Sister Lucia personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consecration corresponded to what Our Lady wished (“Sim, està feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Março de 1984”: “Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984”: Letter of 8 November 1989). Hence any further discussion or request is without basis. Sister Lucia had already given an indication for interpreting the third part of the “secret” in a letter to the Holy Father, dated 12 May 1982: “The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917). The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'. Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc. And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.(5) The decision of His Holiness Pope John Paul II to make public the third part of the “secret” of Fatima brings to an end a period of history marked by tragic human lust for power and evil, yet pervaded by the merciful love of God and the watchful care of the Mother of Jesus and of the Church. The action of God, the Lord of history, and the co-responsibility of man in the drama of his creative freedom, are the two pillars upon which human history is built. Our Lady, who appeared at Fatima, recalls these forgotten values. She reminds us that man's future is in God, and that we are active and responsible partners in creating that future. - Archbishop Bertone, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html The implication by some here is that Bertone in this document is saying that the message of Fatima is over, therefore contradicting later statements by Pope Benedict. But this is not the case. Bertone is saying that the Consecration of Russia has been accomplished. Then he cites a statement by Sister Lucia that acknowledges that not only would the Consecration come too late and the errors of Russia spread, but also that fulfillment of that part of the message remains to be seen . These are Sister Lucia's own words cited by Bertone, how much more explicit can he get? When Bertone says that the decision of Pope John Paul II to make public the third secret "brings to an end a period of history marked by tragic human lust for power and evil" he is not saying that message of Fatima is over (for he clearly cites Sister Lucia's own words affirming that Fatima is not yet complete), but he is instead confirming Cardinal Ratzinger's statement on the Third Secret that: "...insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past. Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed. Fatima does not satisfy our curiosity in this way, just as Christian faith in general cannot be reduced to an object of mere curiosity. What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the 'secret': the exhortation to prayer as the path of 'salvation for souls' and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion..." It is important to differentiate the Third Secret of Fatima from the entire message of Fatima.
One can interpret, in different ways, exactly what Pope Benedict meant when he said "We would be mistaken to think the prophetic mission of Fatima is complete ." But he did say it, inferring Fatima's prophecies, and it did appear to contradict statements made by others in the church. It has even more impact when read in context with the next sentences in which he says "Mankind has succeeded in unleashing a cycle of death and terror, but failed in bringing it to an end…" OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT: HOLY MASS - HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI Esplanade of the Shrine of Our Lady of Fátima Thursday, 13 May 2010 Dear Pilgrims, “Their descendants shall be renowned among the nations […], they are a people whom the Lord has blessed” (Is 61:9). So the first reading of this Eucharist began, and its words are wonderfully fulfilled in this assembly devoutly gathered at the feet of Our Lady of Fatima. Dearly beloved brothers and sisters, I too have come as a pilgrim to Fatima, to this “home” from which Mary chose to speak to us in modern times. I have come to Fatima to rejoice in Mary’s presence and maternal protection. I have come to Fatima, because today the pilgrim Church, willed by her Son as the instrument of evangelization and the sacrament of salvation, converges upon this place. I have come to Fatima to pray, in union with Mary and so many pilgrims, for our human family, afflicted as it is by various ills and sufferings. Finally, I have come to Fatima with the same sentiments as those of Blessed Francisco and Jacinta, and the Servant of God Lúcia, in order to entrust to Our Lady the intimate confession that “I love” Jesus, that the Church and priests “love” him and desire to keep their gaze fixed upon him as this Year for Priests comes to its end, and in order to entrust to Mary’s maternal protection priests, consecrated men and women, missionaries and all those who by their good works make the House of God a place of welcome and charitable outreach. These are the “people whom the Lord has blessed”. The people whom the Lord has blessed are you, the beloved Diocese of Leiria-Fatima, with your pastor, Bishop Antonio Marto. I thank him for his words of greeting at the beginning of Mass, and for the gracious hospitality shown particularly by his collaborators at this Shrine. I greet the President of the Republic and the other authorities who serve this glorious Nation. I spiritually embrace all the Dioceses of Portugal, represented here by their Bishops, and I entrust to Heaven all the nations and peoples of the earth. In God I embrace all their sons and daughters, particularly the afflicted or outcast, with the desire of bringing them that great hope which burns in my own heart, and which here, in Fatima, can be palpably felt. May our great hope sink roots in the lives of each of you, dear pilgrims, and of all those who join us through the communications media. Yes! The Lord, our great hope, is with us. In his merciful love, he offers a future to his people: a future of communion with himself. After experiencing the mercy and consolation of God who did not forsake them along their wearisome return from the Babylonian Exile, the people of God cried out: “I greatly rejoice in the Lord, my whole being exults in my God” (Is 61:10). The resplendent daughter of this people is the Virgin Mary of Nazareth who, clothed with grace and sweetly marvelling at God’s presence in her womb, made this joy and hope her own in the canticle of the Magnificat: “My spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”. She did not view herself as a fortunate individual in the midst of a barren people, but prophecied for them the sweet joys of a wondrous maternity of God, for “his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation” (Lk 1:47, 50). This holy place is the proof of it. In seven years you will return here to celebrate the centenary of the first visit made by the Lady “come from heaven”, the Teacher who introduced the little seers to a deep knowledge of the Love of the Blessed Trinity and led them to savour God himself as the most beautiful reality of human existence. This experience of grace made them fall in love with God in Jesus, so much so that Jacinta could cry out: “How much I delight in telling Jesus that I love him! When I tell him this often, I feel as if I have a fire in my breast, yet it does not burn me”. And Francisco could say: “What I liked most of all was seeing Our Lord in that light which Our Mother put into our hearts. I love God so much!” (Memoirs of Sister Lúcia, I, 42 and 126). Brothers and sisters, in listening to these innocent and profound mystical confidences of the shepherd children, one might look at them with a touch of envy for what they were able to see, or with the disappointed resignation of someone who was not so fortunate, yet still demands to see. To such persons, the Pope says, as does Jesus: “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?” (Mk 12:24). The Scriptures invite us to believe: “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe” (Jn 20:29), but God, who is more deeply present to me than I am to myself (cf. Saint Augustine, Confessions, III, 6, 11) – has the power to come to us, particularly through our inner senses, so that the soul can receive the gentle touch of a reality which is beyond the senses and which enables us to reach what is not accessible or visible to the senses. For this to happen, we must cultivate an interior watchfulness of the heart which, for most of the time, we do not possess on account of the powerful pressure exerted by outside realities and the images and concerns which fill our soul (cf. Theological Commentary on The Message of Fatima, 2000). Yes! God can come to us, and show himself to the eyes of our heart. Moreover, that Light deep within the shepherd children, which comes from the future of God, is the same Light which was manifested in the fullness of time and came for us all: the Son of God made man. He has the power to inflame the coldest and saddest of hearts, as we see in the case of the disciples on the way to Emmaus (cf. Lk 24:32). Henceforth our hope has a real foundation, it is based on an event which belongs to history and at the same time transcends history: Jesus of Nazareth. The enthusiasm roused by his wisdom and his saving power among the people of that time was such that a woman in the midst of the crowd – as we heard in the Gospel – cried out: “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that nursed you!”. And Jesus said: “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” (Lk 11:27-28). But who finds time to hear God’s word and to let themselves be attracted by his love? Who keeps watch, in the night of doubt and uncertainty, with a heart vigilant in prayer? Who awaits the dawn of the new day, fanning the flame of faith? Faith in God opens before us the horizon of a sure hope, one which does not disappoint; it indicates a solid foundation on which to base one’s life without fear; it demands a faith-filled surrender into the hands of the Love which sustains the world. “Their descendants shall be known among the nations, […] they are a people whom the Lord has blessed” (Is 61:9) with an unshakable hope which bears fruit in a love which sacrifices for others, yet does not sacrifice others. Rather, as we heard in the second reading, this love “bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things” (1 Cor 13:7). An example and encouragement is to be found in the shepherd children, who offered their whole lives to God and shared them fully with others for love of God. Our Lady helped them to open their hearts to universal love. Blessed Jacinta, in particular, proved tireless in sharing with the needy and in making sacrifices for the conversion of sinners. Only with this fraternal and generous love will we succeed in building the civilization of love and peace. We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete. Here there takes on new life the plan of God which asks humanity from the beginning: “Where is your brother Abel […] Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground!” (Gen 4:9). Mankind has succeeded in unleashing a cycle of death and terror, but failed in bringing it to an end… In sacred Scripture we often find that God seeks righteous men and women in order to save the city of man and he does the same here, in Fatima, when Our Lady asks: “Do you want to offer yourselves to God, to endure all the sufferings which he will send you, in an act of reparation for the sins by which he is offended and of supplication for the conversion of sinners?” (Memoirs of Sister Lúcia, I, 162). At a time when the human family was ready to sacrifice all that was most sacred on the altar of the petty and selfish interests of nations, races, ideologies, groups and individuals, our Blessed Mother came from heaven, offering to implant in the hearts of all those who trust in her the Love of God burning in her own heart. At that time it was only to three children, yet the example of their lives spread and multiplied, especially as a result of the travels of the Pilgrim Virgin, in countless groups throughout the world dedicated to the cause of fraternal solidarity. May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfilment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.
Even the above statement seems contradicted by the subsequent 2010 homily of the Pope: "Mankind has succeeded in unleashing a cycle of death and terror, but failed in bringing it to an end…", when said in context with the unfulfilled Fatima prophetic mission statement.
And of course Cardinal Sodano added this ....http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html ANNOUNCEMENT MADE BY CARDINAL ANGELO SODANO SECRETARY OF STATE At the end of the Mass presided over by the Holy Father at Fatima, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Secretary of State, made this announcement in Portuguese, which is given here in English translation: ''Even if the events to which the third part of the “secret” of Fatima refers now seem part of the past'' Wake up Party liners.
Or ask Pope Francis. Do you know not one pope has said the Consecration to Russia has been done! Not one! This is a message from our Blessed Mother to Luz de Maria on April 26th: The centenary of My Apparition in Fatima is near, and it pains Me to see that they have not yet complied with everything I requested in Fatima to avoid greater woes to humanity. Do not be negligent, My children; the bear seems to sleep, but he only prepares to attack.
I believe in my heart that this is true. I think Father Gruner was sadly mistaken, God rest his soul. I think we should trust that our Popes and bishops have been truthful to us. I think we should stop rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and lift our heads up and let God lead us http://www.spiritdaily.com/Pathway3.htm The book also makes clear Sister Lucia believed, apparently based on further communication with the Blessed Mother, that while consecrations of Russia to the Immaculate Heart -- as requested at Fatima -- were not fully accomplished by Pope Pius XII in 1942 nor the first such ceremony conducted by John Paul II in 1981, John Paul's second consecration, on March 25, 1984 (after he was shot on the Fatima feast day and became intently involved with the Fatima messages), was indeed accepted by the Blessed Mother, who continued to appear to Lucia after the famous 1917 apparitions. Russia was mentioned prominently in the first two Fatima secrets and it was immediately after the 1984 consecration that Communism fell in the Eastern Bloc nations and then -- incredibly -- Russia itself. The nuns say that Sister Lucia was alternately amused and upset by those who argued that the formal part of the third secret, given to her in 1917, was not revealed by the Vatican in 2000. She told them repeatedly that it was. The seer also confided that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's secretary of state -- often accused by critics of covering up the true third secret -- was as earnest in seeking what it said as others. "The secret was fully revealed in 2000, just as Sister Lucia wrote it and sent it enclosed in a sealed envelope to Bishop José Correia da Silva," says the book. "She herself attested to its authenticity several times before its revelation to the public May 13, 2000, in Fatima. She confirmed her writing several times in front of witnesses after receiving news that its authenticity was questioned. Then, in December of 2003, His Eminence Cardinal Bertone visited her and she again gave him the answer: the secret has been fully revealed. She then added, Some people are never happy! It is no matter." Add the nuns: "It was painful for Sister Lucia to hear the insistence by some that the third part of the Secret was not fully revealed. She lamented: 'If only they live what is the most important thing, which has already been said... They only concern themselves with what is left to be said, instead of complying with the request that was prayer and penance.'"
If only. Cardinal Bertone had a 2hr interview with Sr Lucia . Did he video it? No . Did he Audio tape it ? No. Have it transcribed ? No . Witnessed ? No. According to the Cardinal himself He did something better, He ''Took notes''.
I understand what you're saying. But you're tilting at windmills here. Rearranging the deck chairs while the Titanic sinks. The game is afoot, and we should not be caught up in disagreements looking backwards. That does not come from God. That would come from someone else who seeks to distract us and sow confusion, doubt, and fear. Let's lift our heads up, trust our sheperds and fix our eyes on Jesus and Mary letting them lead us
your words are very wise FP......Let's lift our heads up, trust our sheperds and fix our eyes on Jesus and Mary letting them lead us God Bless You !
not me, don't thank me. I don't think those words came from me. Instead, please thank God! as I think the Holy Spirit is guiding and speaking through many of us so that we help each other stay on the path He needs us on to be a part of His solution, as it were
