I say it's fruitless because: A) If it has happened, then that's wonderful. But it doesn't change the fact that the Chastisements are coming, because that is only one small part of Our Lady's requests to us B)If it hasn't happened, then the faithful aren't going to change that simply by demanding it more loudly. More noise simply makes people more convinced you are crazy: it doesn't make them listen to you And yet the debate devours countless hours and causes untold dissension among the Faithful. I'm not saying we should never discuss it. I'm just saying it's fruitless for us to get into raging debate over it. Also, a quick clarification.. when I said "you are the loose cannon," I meant you as in Mark Shae. And it is not venomous to think that Medjugorje is a fraud, but yes it is definitely venomous to claim a "moral certainty" (as Shae does) that an apparition is fraudulent. That "moral certainty" is impossible with any apparition, much less one that isn't condemned, has produced countless good fruits, and never spoken a heresy. To claim a "moral certainty" that a seer is a fraud is to put ones self on the Judgment Seat that is Christ's alone. Evidently Mark Shae has no problem putting himself on that seat. I do not envy the position this places him in when he'll have to stand before it.
Thank God for the Church to rule on apparitions and mystical phenomena and saints etc. Were would we be without it? Fighting like cats and dogs for all Eternity. I am particularly glad that the Church is (I hope) about to rule on Medugorje. I wish they would step on the gas a little though. We owe the Church so much. I was thinking, 'Is it possible sometimes to say with certainty that an apparition site is false BEFORE the Church rules?' Sometimes I think the evil of something kind of jumps up and bites you on the ass, for instance one that attacks the Pope, like Maria Divine Mercy. Glenn Dalliare has a good instance of a false one he use to believe in here, which is well worth reading: You would not have had to wait on the Church to see this one was false: http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/false-visionaries-mediums-psychics.html
With Eight Months to GO!? .... or Less ;-( ..... Perhaps it is time to go to Scripture ... Ya Know! .... that dusty Bible on the coffee table! I can't speak for others but growing up in the 50-60s, Pre-Vatican II, Catholic School with real Nuns and All That. I simply don't remember a big "push" to do serious Bible Study ... Mass readings and the Priest's Sermons along with Catechism was about it. Serious Bible Study was something those WingNut Southern Baptists did. Old and New Testaments have warned US of false Prophets and phony miracles and a Great Falling Away. Gang! I truly believe that false prophets, phony miracles and the Great Falling Away has "Done Happened"! Think about it! Radio, Hollywood, TV, Satellites, I-Pods, Personal Computers, Videos and the InterNet..... All of which has been spewing out demonic filth-n-garbage for 60+ years. How would First Century AD Apostles and ancient Old Testament Prophets describe the above .. Eh!?? I have no doubt that satan and his demonic pals are busier than ever but I'd be spending a lot less time "looking under the bed" for evil spirits or wasting time on Not Approved by The Church Holy Joes-n-Janes, apparitions or signs-n-wonders! I'm, awfully, afraid that many... even here ... will fall away because they will come to realize that their favorite Not Approved by The Church .. Whatever ... turns out to be phony or worse! I did a 15 second Net-Search and came up with the below. Biblical warnings of false prophets/wonders: http://www.catholicessentials.net/falseprophets.htm http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/False-Miracles,-Nature-Of GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
I think it should be pointed out that the Church makes no ruling at all on the vast majority of claimed apparitions and locutions. I believe the vast majority are not authentic but I think that the Church generally doesn't get involved unless they start to have a worldwide impact. The Catechism recognises that the laity and clergy together need to discern these matters, albeit with Church guidance when provided: Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. (67)
Maybe the Holy Spirit sent a word of knowledge to Father Amorth that time was running short...but for Father Gruner (?) It is all too clear after time what the word of knowledge meant. May Father Gruner enjoy the Beatific Vision as I write, but please everyone be careful not to get too whipped up into time frames because most often, they come and go. Father Gruner may have been so stressed out that he suffered this fatal heart attack. One more random thought...Earth day is prominently discussed in public schools in the U.S. I thought it was ironic that the Chile Volcano prominently erupted on earth day. A volcano can quickly bring about a change in global temperature meanwhile at the Vatican scientists. United Nations officials and clergy are feverishly telling us how we are causing climate change and we have got to quit it.
Vatican City, Apr 7, 2013 / 07:12 am (CNA/EWTN News).- On the Feast of Divine Mercy, Pope Francis emphasized that when Jesus said “blessed are those who do not see and yet believe,” he also referred to those who believed the testimony of the Apostles and everyone today who hears the witness of Christians and believes. “And who were they who believed without seeing? Other disciples, men and women of Jerusalem that, while they did not meet the resurrected Jesus, believed in the testimony of the Apostles and the women,” Pope Francis said April 7 before a crowd of around 100,000 people. The Pope made his remarks before praying the Regina Caeli from the window of the papal apartment that overlooks St. Peter’s Square. He focused on the Gospel reading for today, which recalls the encounter between St. Thomas and Jesus after the resurrection. When he first heard the news of the resurrection, the Pope noted that Thomas responded, “If I do not see and do not touch, I will not believe.” But eight days later, Jesus appeared to the Apostles in the upper room and invited Thomas to look at his wounds, to touch them, and he exclaimed: “My Lord my God.” “Jesus replied, ‘because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.’” “This is a very important word on faith,” Pope Francis stated, adding that “we can call it the beatitude of faith.” “At all times and in all places are blessed are those who, through the Word of God proclaimed in Church and witnessed by Christians, believe that Jesus Christ is the love of God incarnate, Mercy incarnate. “And this is true for each of us!” he exclaimed.
Yes I would say the vast majority are false and the internet has meant the false ones are growing like cabbages. But I don't let it get me down. I have encountered several during the life of this forum I know to be true, some of which I expect to be raised to the altars of the Church as Saints. When I was young I was forever reading the lives of the saints and their wonderful goings on. Now I can hardly believe I actually get to meet these people and number them amongst my friends. So the bad ones are worth paying the price for getting to actually meet and greet saints first hand. But an even greater joy than this is meeting so many , 'ordinary' Catholics and through their prayer requests see the huge crosses they carry and grace at work in their every day lives. This has been a great eye opener for me. That I can see the lives of the saints in ordinary people all around me. One French writer once wrote, ''Many people live lives of quiet desperation '. I would change this to read, 'Many people live lives of great desperation and sanctity'. I think nowadays these are the saints my eyes are particularly drawn too. I suppose only in heaven will we ever really know..only in heaven..
I feel especially for parents worried about their children, especially fearing they might go to hell. I can't even begin to imagine their pain.
I have a beautiful rosary that an elderly women gave me in a choir loft when I was singing with a schola for a Latin Mass. I don't know why, but she walked up to me and said, "If I give you this rosary, would you pray for my two sons? They are both out of the Church and I'm really worried about them." I tried to tell her I'd pray for them regardless but she insisted I take the rosary. It's always in my pocket and I try to remember them when I pray with it.
You acused me of calling you an ULRA Conservative,( when I did not ) on another thread. But now you propose to the WORLD to listen to ULTRA consevatives on Pope Francis.... true colors......................................
Sorry, I don't accept your labels. There is orthodox and heterodox, not ultra this or ultra that. If the video I linked contains heterodoxy feel free to point it out and refute it. You should be far more concerned about the Vatican inviting pro-abort population controllers to speak there about sustainable development (UN double speak for population control) than some tiny handful of ultra or rad this or that.
Are you sure it wouldnt change coming chastisements Daniel? She told the children that "to prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart" and promised that, by this single public act, Russia would be converted and peace would be given to the world.
B)If it hasn't happened, then the faithful aren't going to change that simply by demanding it more loudly. More noise simply makes people more convinced you are crazy: it doesn't make them listen to you. Well Im probably a little bit crazy, But when well argued by experts, it can make a difference. Maybe if you argued the truth rather than chase unapproved stuff ,you could make a difference and help stop the Annihilation of Nations. You seem to be one of these at the moment ..."Father, the most Holy Virgin is very sad because no one has paid any attention to Her Message, neither the good nor the bad. The good continue on their way, but without giving any importance to Her Message. The bad, not seeing the punishment of God actually falling upon them, continue their life of sin without even caring about the Message. But believe me, Father, God will chastise the world and this will be in a terrible manner. The punishment from Heaven is imminent."
Interesting, Mac. So I make our lady "very sad" because I don't believe we are called to rant and rave and petition about the Consecration? Perhaps you could direct me to the part of Our Lady's message at Fatima where she insisted that the laity do that. I will not post my spiritual regimen for display on a forum, but I will say that no one who knows me would ever accuse me of "not paying attention" to Our Lady's messages. You seem to think that "truth" and "unapproved stuff" are intrinsically contradictory ends. The illogical nature of such an assertion baffles my mind. I think that the good people who make Our Lady very sad are the ones who refuse to listen to her unless the message is approved by the Church. One million people didn't have to die at Rwanda. But they did, because we did not listen to and heed Our Lady's apparitions at Kibeho -- apparitions aimed at preventing the genocide. Apparitions which were approved only after the genocide took place. Oh, and, you wouldn't even know about Fatima today were it not for the countless thousands who paid attention to it before it was approved. You can thank those "chasers of unapproved stuff" for your own Fatima devotion.
1 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: Prologue 2 That men may know wisdom and instruction, understand words of insight, 3 receive instruction in wise dealing, righteousness, justice, and equity; 4 that prudence may be given to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— 5 the wise man also may hear and increase in learning, and the man of understanding acquire skill, 6 to understand a proverb and a figure, the words of the wise and their riddles. 7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. Warnings against Evil Companions 8 Hear, my son, your father’s instruction, and reject not your mother’s teaching; 9 for they are a fair garland for your head, and pendants for your neck. 10 My son, if sinners entice you, do not consent. 11 If they say, “Come with us, let us lie in wait for blood, let us wantonly ambush the innocent; 12 like Sheol let us swallow them alive and whole, like those who go down to the Pit; 13 we shall find all precious goods, we shall fill our houses with spoil; 14 throw in your lot among us, we will all have one purse”— 15 my son, do not walk in the way with them, hold back your foot from their paths; 16 for their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed blood. 17 For in vain is a net spread in the sight of any bird; 18 but these men lie in wait for their own blood, they set an ambush for their own lives. 19 Such are the ways of all who get gain by violence; it takes away the life of its possessors. The Call of Wisdom 20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street; in the markets she raises her voice; 21 on the top of the walls[a] she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: 22 “How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? 23 Give heed[b] to my reproof; behold, I will pour out my thoughts[c] to you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, 25 and you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when panic strikes you, 27 when panic strikes you like a storm, and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. 28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. 29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, 30 would have none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof, 31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way and be sated with their own devices. 32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacence of fools destroys them; 33 but he who listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of evil.”
Dear Daniel and Mac, I left this forum for more than a year because of the petty infighting exhibited on the board. None of us must believe any personal revelation, because it is by definition personal. I believe that Fatima is not just personal revelation. I think Medjugorgy may be false. these are my opinions and can certainly be discussed. We can try to persuade others to see another side. But please stop the petty name calling. Please stop being so easily offended. That is the Devil's work.
By the way, I have to believe Pope Francis is doing the wrong thing if Al Gore says he wants to become Catholic because of the Popes stance on Climate Change. If Al Gore is on his side, I'm certain it is the wrong side!
This should be so blatantly obvious to any Faithful Catholic with a pulse that it should go without saying. The fact that it must be said illustrates the diabolical disorientation of our times. At Fatima Mary said that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world. When the global Marxism movement realized it could not win over the West by warfare or propaganda it went underground, hiding itself in the environmental movement. That movement had effectively neutralized the West and now it is coopting the Vatican with its subversive agenda. "Russia" has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the world, including Rome apparently.
