I'm sorry but Cardinal Burke as well as his opposition have enough experience, years of it, with the media to know very well what a stir any remarks made by individual attendees, in the middle of this meeting and when they knew that the Pope would stand by what he promised to do himself....keep silent and not take the bait from ANYONE.... could make to stoke any latent doubts and limited knowledge within the faithful. This isn't the first time this darling of the American Catholic media has taken advantage of the faithful for the purpose of division. He attempted last spring to speak for and to re-interpret what the Pope had stated previously....from his personal point of view....of course. I saw it then as, to be charitable, very disingenuous and thought he deserved to be sacked/demoted from the authority he was given. What chutzpah and arrogance to suggest publicly what the Pope should say or do esp. when he can't hold a candle to the life experience among the poor and abused that Francis has lived out....Christ like....and made real hard decisions while in the trenches and NEVER dishonored the mission or teachings of the Church. I won't be snookered into any type of apostasy by any "well-connected" prelate. Personality cults have been very detrimental to the confidence the faithful in recent years....as has clericalism. I'd prefer the stability of a man such as C. Pell, no shrinking conservative himself. He's a grownup! And, btw, you left out what followed "who am I to judge" which actually was a good lesson for those on any perch of official judgement.
"I won't be snookered into any type of apostasy by any "well-connected" prelate." Great, but take care that you are not snookered into promoting factionalism, and a wound on your own soul, by hatred of said prelate. Everything that you have said appears to me that you actually HATE the man. You seem to not be able to write a paragraph, even one about a talk by Cardinal Pell, without including a handful of scathing references to Cardinal Burke.
Well then, it would seem that "what appears to you" is in error....in several instances. I hate no one, thank you very much. I resent advantageous ACTIONS whoever the personality involved. You apparently missed the part in my words about TWO people in opposition who BOTH took advantage of the faithful. You don't think so? You actually believe that such antics from both extremes was something good for the process that all the rest cooperated with? I put a question mark since I, unlike yourself, do not impugn your motivation as you did of myself. And just the opposite, I was CONDEMNING the promotion of "factionalism" by those who couldn't resist the temptation to take advantage of the Pope rather than live in cooperation with their brother Bishops. You obviously have some attachment to C. Burke regardless of what he has demonstrated by his behavior and words. I look at the behavior and words of anyone who should attempt to take an unfair advantage of the vulnerable faithful and judge THEM wanting.
Cardinal Pell: ‘Today we have one of the more unusual popes in history’ By Pete Baklinski “The story of the Popes is stranger than fiction, but the contribution of the many good Popes far outweighs the sins and mistakes of the minority,” Cardinal George Pell wrote in a homily delivered on his behalf in Rome’s parish dedicated to the traditional Latin Mass. “Today we have one of the more unusual popes in history, enjoying almost unprecedented popularity.” The homily was delivered at Ss. Trinità Church to participants in the 3rd annual Summorum Pontificum pilgrimage in Rome by the Cardinal’s secretary Fr. Mark Withoos, as the cardinal was prevented from celebrating the Mass because of bronchitis. Cardinal Pell's full homily is available here [PDF]. Pell, one of the pope’s most senior cardinals and the one to whom the pope entrusted the reform of the Vatican’s finances, was an outspoken voice of orthodoxy during the Synod as a so-called ‘radical’ minority of Synod fathers attempted to push through reforms that would open the door to acceptance of homosexuality, cohabitation, and other changes to Catholic moral teaching. In the homily, focused mainly on the importance of the papacy, Cardinal Pell wrote that it is “one of the most amazing institutions in history,” and emphasized the Church was built by Christ on “Peter himself, despite his faults and failings.” “Pope Francis is the 266th Pope and history has seen 37 false or anti-Popes,” he said, adding that Francis “is doing a marvelous job backing the financial reforms.” Turning to the fallout of the Synod, Pell wrote: “We all have an important task during the next twelve months i.e. to explain and build a consensus out of the present divisions.” “We will be counter productive if we have anger or hate in our hearts, if we lapse into sterile polemics against a surprisingly small number of catholic opponents.” He reassured his hearers that doctrine does not change. “Doctrine does develop – we understand truth more deeply – but there are no doctrinal back-flips in Catholic history.” Cardinal Pell's full homily is available here [PDF]
I like what Mark Mallet wrote in his latest blog: Listen to the Pope Believe the Church Trust in Jesus I also think his admonishment to Pray more, speak less… trust is Spot on! He really has written another Spirit-filled post. I agree totally in his suggestion around the Apostles Creed as well. http://www.markmallett.com/blog/the-spirit-of-trust/#more-16943
I am not saying that you hate Cardinal Burke, Observer. I am saying that you are giving that impression. Yes, I do like Cardinal Burke, but that is not here or there. I don't even see Cardinal Kasper, who has done much worse, being described in such withering terms on this site.
Well, once again, the facts speak differently, again, to your personal desires. You might take a look at comments 47, 48, 49, 51. In the aftermath of this first portion of the special synod, btw, there was a statement by Kasper where he admitted that he had to be realistic! I haven't as yet seen any mention of admittance to speaking over the ongoing discussion by the opposite side. By your own measures of others one would also then have to believe that you harbor a particular dislike (I won't say "hate"....too reflexive of a knee jerk defense for an opposition) for Cardinal Kasper. In all, the magnanimous example of brotherly love and unity was given to us by Pope Francis. I wouldn't be surprised if this attempt for brotherly unity, not only with one another but with the Pope, by Francis isn't as well a necessary method for union with the Pope for any future consecration of Russia which request of our Lady's requires that Bishops' union be joined with the Pope for that. That old adage may apply to Francis' techniques...."keep your friends close and your enemies closer"!!
OK, earthtoangels, my original point was to urge all of us to be more circumspect in our statements about various Churchmen (or anyone for that matter.) I'm sure you think you have ample evidence to call Cardinal Burke "arrogant", "hysteric", attention seeking, mutineer, etc. but are those facts or interpretations? Even if they were facts, would this be the right forum to air them? We have to be charitable in our speech. You are right that I'm not a big fan of Cdl, Kasper, but hopefully I didn't make all sorts of accusations against him. If I did, I was in the wrong. I do admit to thinking that perhaps he is a bit senile or having other issues in his old age, but even though I feel he is harming the Church with his proposals, I don't hold it against him personally. At least Cardinal Kasper is trying to find solutions to help wounded people - I will give him that - but his mistake is to throw doctrine out the window in the process. Hopefully, this will get some of the hierarchy thinking about ways to help without compromising any doctrine. As far as the comments you referenced, as far as I understand, wasn't Cardinal Kasper caught uttering an untruth? Even so, calling him a liar is not warranted - like I said, he may be a bit senile, forgetful, or confused.
Well, obviously they are facts....you can even go to interviews or other verbatim reports to hear the admonitions and re-interpretations and suggested orders given to the Pope (and, btw, not face to face)....thus, not "interpretations". And I haven't read any as "pointed" criticisms against those several mentioned posts....Kasper, the liar; lies; will get his comeuppance; building on sand. And just where has Kasper stated his intention or motivation to "throw doctrine out the window in the process". I believe rather that any suggestions on that extreme were to have pointed reviews of cases rather than allow the status quo of huge groups of people where the hierarchy and clerics themselves are guilty of leading astray for so many decades be lumped into one targeted group. And it's really those characterizations of the Pope himself that I've read that are truly dangerous when one is speaking in the area of schism or apostasy. Will people simply select their personally anointed choice as a reason for a real separation from the Pope himself as Vicar of Christ?....one would have to entertain just that possibility with what has been inferred within all of the misinformation out there. Mark Mallett has certainly alluded to that danger in his own writings about the volume of correspondence he's been receiving....i.e. the very title of this particular thread itself. Those of the West who are reacting in horror about the decades old elephant in the room are, as usual, completely divorced from the reality of the large populations of the third/fourth worlds. Pope Francis' emphasis on a new pastoral approach which includes of course teaching and formation of true relationships for authentic marriage begs this problem to be given attention.....or else the 90 or so percent of those illicit "arrangements" will simply continue reception of Communion as they have been doing and continue to do. Do you just continue to quote the rule book and turn a blind eye to that reality in the Catholic world as if they are simply unteachable or of some lesser quality of humanity? And, of all people, an old cleric sounding off about this true problem could just introduce this reality to those so comfortable in their avoidance of all teachable moments because they might ruffle some feathers of the choir. Pews completely emptying out at Communion time in every parish has to tell them something when the confession lines are composed of the same few for a limited hour or so one day of the week! Whether they will admit it or not.....what they are vocally forbidding is taking place right in front of their eyes and they are doing nothing about it. No one is advocating change of doctrine in reality, but seem to have to shake things up to even get the hypocritical problem out there. The reactions to the problem is what this Pope has opened and people are being taught to finally consider all angles of this terrible situation that involves their whole Catholic family....not just the neighborhood within their "American" Church.
It's still an interpretation. So, let me get this straight, any time anyone would say that the Pope should do this or that, they are automatically arrogant, hysteric, attention-seeking and a mutineer? I dare say that would make almost anyone fit into that category. Of course, Cdl. Kasper doesn't see that he is throwing doctrine out the window - otherwise he wouldn't make the suggestions he did. How can one just let remarried people receive Communion, when Jesus clearly states that anyone who divorces and marries another commits adultery? What you call "quoting the rule book", I call "being faithful to Jesus' words." No, one must determine individually whether the original marriage is valid or not - it can't just be assumed to be invalid, even though, due to poor formation and culpable silence on the part of the clergy, many or most marriages probably are invalid. As far as the rest of your comments, I am not even sure what you are talking about, so my response may or may not be apropos. The Church can determine this individually, and if those couples don't even bother to try to regularize their situation, then what is the Church supposed to do? Of course, the solution is teaching and formation. That much is obvious. But how many are listening? If the pastors aren't saying anything about this in their homilies, then the blame is on them, but if they have been informed, then if people are in irregular situations and still receiving Communion, that's on their conscience. There is no way that the Church should have a Communion police or something. The root problem, in my opinion, is that people are Protestantized/secularized and basically think that they are entitled to make up their own morality and still remain faithful. Everyone receives Communion because no one wants to stick out, and people justify themselves in their actions rather than repenting and going to Confession. I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
Mark Mallet's latest blog..a Thin line between mercy and heresy is really quite thought provoking. http://www.markmallett.com/blog/the-thin-line-between-mercy-heresy-part-i/#more-16961
Cardinal says church under Pope Francis is a ‘rudderless ship’ Josephine McKenna | October 31, 2014 | VATICAN CITY (RNS) American Cardinal Raymond Burke, the feisty former archbishop of St. Louis who has emerged as the face of the opposition to Pope Francis’ reformist agenda, likened the Roman Catholic Church to “a ship without a rudder” in a fresh attack on the pope’s leadership. In an interview with the Spanish Catholic weekly Vida Nueva, published Thursday (Oct. 30), Burke insisted he was not speaking out against the pope personally but raising concern about his leadership. “Many have expressed their concerns to me. At this very critical moment, there is a strong sense that the church is like a ship without a rudder,” Burke said. “Now, it is more important than ever to examine our faith, have a healthy spiritual leader and give powerful witness to the faith.” Show caption Burke is the current head of the Vatican’s highest court known as the Apostolic Signatura, but he said recently he is about to be demoted. There is speculation he will be made patron of the Order of Malta, a largely ceremonial post. “I have all the respect for the Petrine ministry and I do not want to seem like I am speaking out against the pope,” he said in the interview. “I would like to be a master of the faith, with all my weaknesses, telling a truth that many currently perceive.” “They are feeling a bit seasick because they feel the church’s ship has lost its way,” he added. Burke has expressed an uncompromising stance on keeping the ban on Communion for Catholics who divorce and remarry without an annulment, and is one of five conservative cardinals who aired their views in a new book, “Remaining in the Truth of Christ,” released on the eve of the bishops’ blockbuster synod in early October. When the synod signaled a more welcoming tone to gay and lesbian Catholics, Burke publicly accused the global gathering of bias and was among those who pushed for a less conciliatory approach in the final report. Burke had previously said that Catholic families should not expose children to the “evil” of homosexuality by inviting a gay son home for Christmas with his partner. In his latest interview, Burke said the church was “the pillar of marriage” and challenged the pope’s revolutionary “Who am I to judge?” remark on gay people. “The acts must be judged; I do not think that the pope thinks differently. They are sinful and unnatural. The pope never said we can find positive elements in them. It is impossible to find positive elements in an evil act.” KRE/AMB END McKENNA
You've just described an integral part of the Great Apostasy, that great falling away foretold in Scripture. Kasper would have us condone and cooperate with it, in the name of some false mercy, to keep the coffers full of the German Church Tax. While preaching 'mercy' these same German bishops have applied a sentence of automatic excommunication and denial of all sacraments to ANY German who has his name struck from the Church lists to avoid paying the Church Tax. Because unlike those "evil" western bishops and cardinals, the German hierarchy are payed to the tune of $12,000 to $15.000 a month by the German government, which same pay comes from ... Yep, you guessed it, that same Church Tax for which Germans ARE refused all the sacraments if they leave the Church to avoid paying it. Damnable hypocrisy! I thought Pope Francis detested those who search after earthly treasure?!? Meanwhile men like Burke and Pell see this same Great Apostasy for exactly what it is, and refuse to compromise the clear Teachings of Christ in Scripture to accommodate it. They refuse to be swayed by the slanders and the insults employed by those who try to break their resolve. While they earn their Crown in Heaven for their resolve and fortitude in the face of this onslaught, the men you champion are earning something else indeed. People are not so easily fooled. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, a spiritual sense guided by prayer and docility to the true Holy Spirit, can see right through the slick rhetoric and the attacks on the true defenders of the Faith in our age. Sorry, but sometimes the hard word just has to be said on a forum like this. A number of posters have asked me to stick around here to continue to provide an alternative viewpoint and I've tried to do so here.
http://www.catholicvote.org/divorce-and-remarriage-and-the-prodigal-son/ DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE AND THE PRODIGAL SON At his National Catholic Reporter blog Michael Sean Winters takes New York Times columnist (and convert to Catholicism) Ross Douthat to task for worrying about the pastoral implications of a change in the Church’s teaching on marriage and divorce, or a change in practice that implies a change in the teaching. Douthat points out that such a change would be damaging to the faith of many Catholics who over the years, in the face of much derision and a hostile culture, have defended the traditional teaching and tried to live by it. Winters compares Douthat to the older brother of the prodigal son, who complained that the wayward youth had been welcomed back into the father’s house. I think Winters misuses the prodigal son story in a couple of ways. First, since he wants to appeal to that story as a standard of Christian behavior, he ought to consult it again and observe that when the father corrects the old brother, he does so patiently and gently, in a spirit of charity. In contrast, Winters heaps denunciation on Douthat. Second, and more important, he fails to see that the story of the prodigal son does not correspond to the case of the divorced and remarried Catholic. The prodigal son is welcomed back into the father’s house because he has left behind his sinful ways and returned repentant. According to the traditional Catholic teaching, reaffirmed in the latest Catechism (which is only a couple of decades old), this is not the position of the divorced and remarried Catholic who is persisting in living out a second union as if he were married to the new partner. That person is not leaving behind the wrong turn that alienated him from the Church in the first place. It is also worth noting that in an important sense the Church already does welcome even the divorced and remarried Catholic. It encourages him to attend mass and to make a spiritual communion. The people who want to maintain the status quo in the Church are therefore not exactly in the position of the older brother in the story of the prodigal son. And it is worth remembering that the people defending the status quo are defending what the Church has believed to be the correct approach for a long time. If they are in the position of the older brother of the prodigal son, then presumably the Church itself has been in the position of the older son, or has failed to imitate the good father of that parable. Is that what Winters wants to say? The prodigal son left behind his sinful ways and was welcomed back into the father’s house. The divorced and remarried Catholic has not left behind the sin in question, but is still admitted into the Church–just not admitted to communion. To this extent, the Church is already dealing more gently with the divorced and remarried than the father dealt with the prodigal son.
Quality posts Brian . Sound Catholic thinking there. But the Pope has this for you ... Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal 'security,' those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists - they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies. Pope Francis
No offense, but your arrogance in inferring certain unfounded judgements upon others, without refuting facts (as your manufactured "opponents" have the humility of taking the time to do) is just, well, shall we simply say (and without the hammer of your "hard facts") not founded in basic Christianity. While they earn their Crown in Heaven for their resolve and fortitude in the face of this onslaught, the men you champion are earning something else indeed. I'll give you credit for drama even if not much for insight. And just who might they be? Don't go looking for straw men to knock down when they don't exist....such temptations cause great delight to the master of division when they are so easily fallen into via comment boxes. This Holy Father, pray for him, is one who is actually taking on the now immense task of finally answering the whole gamut of the reasons behind all those emptying the pews without being properly dressed for reception....and a load of those reasons lie upon the shoulders of the shepherds themselves; thus his desire for unity within the shepherds for a new fervor of pastoral reaching out with an instruction that can make a difference....outside of beating the book which has actually worked to give us that present scenario you, at least on the one hand, object to so vehemently. So, IOW, prove you're worthy of being called a Shepherd or at least get out of the way. When it comes to real pastoring, the Peter Principle can be seen to be alive and well in our recent past into the present moment even within the hierarchy of the Church.
The only problem with your argument is that the majority of Catholics disagree with your stance on Cardinals and Bishops especially those who are seen as right wing. They see right wing Cardinals who by there words and actions have one rule for the Laity and another for themselves. The rot set in long before 1960 when the Fatima secret was to be released the abuse of the Laity and especially children from the 1920s to the present day this is the reason that the churches are empty. There have been some Pious Cardinals who have no problem condemning people over Abortion and Contraception, but on the other hand willing to accept priests who they knew to be Pidofiles because they had been accused before and needed to be moved for cover up their crimes so as hot to embarrass Themselves or the Church. Where they thinking of us or our children when they sent these pidofiles into the homes of the vaunerable people. The first one who comes to mid first is Cardinal Kieth O'Brian who was a very strong right wing Catholic as he had no problem telling us his views on Abortion, Homosexuality, and same Sex Marriage. Until he was accused by four other priests of sexual abuse on themselves and being homosexual in 2013. The Laity are not blind they need to see Pope Francis take on these Pharisees and win,(which he will). Remember Pope Benedict had no power outside his office door the power of the Church was in the hands of right wing Cardinals like Cardinal Bertone, and Cardinal Sodano who called child abuse in the Church "Petty Gossip" and who called a halt into John Paul's 11 inquiry into child sex abuse. Our Cardinals should not be judged on only their words but also their actions. Cover Ups upon Cover Ups this what is killing Our Church, the corruption of a few has done so much hurt and damage to many. This is why i love Pope Francis he is so open and he tells the truth especially Gods truth. I see also some people complaining about German Cardinals and money, how many millions has the Catholic Church in America paid out to people it has Abused. Think of the good that money could had made to the people who are poor at this time, if only the Cardinals and bishops had told the truth at that time. We would be in a very different place today.
We must pray and make sacrifices for all of our priests. Getting caught is a tit for tat argument about them is a trick of the enemy.
One bad cop makes all cops bad...it is a sad argument. It can be used on every profession on earth. Even out of 12 one was bad...that's 8 percent of His followers. It's easy to point out the bad. Free will allows us to stray away from God. Brother al
Pope Francis has his proxies, like Kasper, Baldiserri, and Forte, in pushing his progressive agenda. Pope Emeritus Benedict has his proxies too, in trying to push back against this progressive agenda. That should be obvious to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear, and its something that was verified to me this morning. And that's all I will say about that.
