Garabandal Objections: "closed till after the Feast of Assumption"

Is it fair to say this quote... One day, before the Miracle, something will happen that will cause many people to stop believing in the apparitions of Garabandal.
Has been willfully abused? Attempted twisting of meaning? Will you still use it in future Glenn?

 

This is a lie, plain and simple. I never stated this. I didn't believe in this prophecy before Joey's death.

 

Mac , when did I declare "this is THE ONE event". I brought it up as a possible cause for obvious reasons, look at the effect it has had .

 

Well after over 100 posts,certainly seems that way. But if you didn't "little me", I appologize.

 

First of all, you are incorrect in your statement. Mary never blessed sacramentals, she kissed them. One less "red flag". Next topic.

 

Everyone , see my point I brought up before about unbelievers and their pride, Read question #104 ( answer on #105 ) God forbid someone say "oh ,thanks for clearing that up " . They dont want answers, they want to argue. Why do I bother answering questions for people who dont want to hear the truth ? And you wonder why I get defensive.

 

Fair point Glenn

 

Well,I've been online answering questions for over 13 hours today, on 3 sites , thats enough abuse for one day Seeya tomorrow for another round of fun.

 

OK "little me", lets telleveryone the truth now ! YOU ALREADY POSTED ANOTHER QUESTION IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT ANSWER , THEN WHEN YOU SAW MY COMMENT ,YOU DELETED THE QUESTION SO NO ONE WOULD SEE IT, AND POSTED THIS POST.
As an Admin, I can see all actions here. Nice try.

As to your next statement " I actually don't even care about Garabandal at all," FUNNY, YOU SPEND ALOT OF TIME TRYING TO ARGUE , FOR SOMEONE WHO DOESNT CARE ! So I guess this is good-bye since you dont care anymore .

 

Actually Glenn, your answer doesn't show up unless I refresh my screen. I posted another question and deleted it because I had more to say and didn't want to get into it at that time because I had to make dinner. You're quite the sleuth, but are wrong. You're being obnoxious. This is the fruit of Garabandal, you screaming (all caps) at people.

 

Ahem...back to the JP (Joey prophecy) perhaps ...

I just read all six pages above and I see 6 basic positions amongst all this gun-smoke:
(A) The JP has not failed:
(i) it is "prudent to withhold final judgement" (eg Glenn #2) until we see what happens re the central prophecies (Miracle/Warning).
(ii) Joey is now seeing with his "new eyes" in heaven (eg LynnFiat #3)
(iii) Joey will be resurrected on the day of the Miracle (eg Richard67 #7), (possibly Jose #9)
(B) The JP has failed:
(i) but that doesn't mean Garabandal itself has fallen (eg Danieltlig #34)
(ii) its "all over Rover" for Garabandal as a whole (implied by some).
(iii) not sure if Garabandal still stands or not (eg Jose #9)
(C) There never was an actual Garabandal prophecy re Joey:
(i) "...there could have been a mistake in Conchita's interpretation" (eg Carmel #4)

Before I draw out a few observations I must say I have become more interested in some very insightful comments made about the process itself here.
Different contributors approach this debate (regardless of their actual position) in a wide variety of ways - some more "Catholic" than others.

The most insightful to my mind was CharlieJohnston's "Little Way" (#14):
"My little way is not shaken by these things. I rarely get so vested in my own interpretation of something that I become embittered when my interpretation is proven false. "
Precious! Unfortunately I do seem to see contributors sometimes making a virtue out of doing the very opposite.
Please kick my a** when I start doing this (not that anyone here has ever been hesitant to kick my a** anyhow ).


Then there is Andy3 (#81):
"... A moderator must moderate the discussion and ask and reserve the right to express caution if the debate seems to be uncharitable or heading in an uncharitable way... You will not see my opinion on this situation though you may get an idea but as a moderator it is not my place to input my opinion but to moderate."
I agree that a moderator should never present an opinion on the topic in a debate he/she is moderating.
If nothing else a moderator airing an opinion is counter-productive to the debate as a whole and can only ostracise unfairly the other camp - as some are already saying thus far.

So Andy I, for one, would be welcoming of you to officially moderate this thread for charity (or lack thereof). Then the rest of us will be free to biffo with charity as equals .

 

I've deleted some of my uncharitable comments. Carry on.

 

A) The JP has not failed:
(i) it is "prudent to withhold final judgement" (eg Glenn #2) until we see what happens re the central prophecies (Miracle/Warning).
(ii) Joey is now seeing with his "new eyes" in heaven (eg LynnFiat #3)
(iii) Joey will be resurrected on the day of the Miracle (eg Richard67 #7), (possibly Jose #9)
(B) The JP has failed:(i) but that doesn't mean Garabandal itself has fallen (eg Danieltlig #34)
(ii) its "all over Rover" for Garabandal as a whole (implied by some).
(iii) not sure if Garabandal still stands or not (eg Jose #9)
(C) There never was an actual Garabandal prophecy re Joey:
(i) "...there could have been a mistake in Conchita's interpretation" (eg Carmel #4)

My opening observations would be:

(a) Lets acknowledge that we are dealing with the "probable." There is rarely absolute certainty in any given position in these sorts of debates.
So this is a debate only about degrees of reasonability/liklihood of particular positions/inferences/interpretations. (Historical facts aren't always certain either).
That means people may honourably hold a minority position without being considered prideful (or of the devil) simply for that reason alone.
Fate can be stranger than fiction. People can be (vincibly) ignorant without blame. And sincere Catholics do not have to believe even in approved Apparitions for all the above reasons and more.

(b) Even if it was certain that Garabandal Apparitions were true ... that does NOT mean every minor side prophecy or comment by a Seer also has to be true also.

(c) I personally accept as highly probable (ie next to certain) that Joey himself believed he would get his earthly sight back before the day of the Miracle.
I also personally accept that Conchita herself believed the same.
From the positions outlined above almost all contributors accept this too - including Glenn, it seems, who is therefore left with a difficult mystery (which is a reasonable interim position it seems to me).

The only contributors who does not seem to accept this almost incontrovertible fact are those who hold to position A(ii) above.
This is the usual "spiritualising" escape clause that we see when a prophecy's "plain reading" fails.
The problem with the "Joey sees in heaven" escape clause is that it doesn't really work at all in this case.
This effectively means our Lady really did give this prophecy to Joey but it was an empty "placebo prophecy" because all those who die and go to heaven see don't they?
In other words this empties the JP to no more than "Joey you are going to heaven if you say those prayers and BTW it was me, Our Lady, who gave you that locution after your accident".
That's fine. But I believe it highly improbable that is what Conchita said or meant.

In which case, if Conchita really did say Joey would see again in this life (and it came directly from Our Lady) then if Garabandal is true then the only solution seems to be A(iii) above.
Joey must be resurrected from the dead on the day of the Miracle. Unless people want to seriously discuss this I am not even going to go here as this is so improbable that, in my mind, it borders on a superstitious approach to Catholic understanding of miracles and mysticism.

(d) For myself I believe the most probable position to take, short of the day of the Miracle, is that the JP is mistakenly put on a pedestal by "believers" (and some non-believers for that matter).
Its mistakenly honoured at the same level as the main-show (eg Warning and Miracle).
Such incidents (along with 7 or 8 others we could mention later) are, to my mind, more "side-shows" and more personal "vignette's" leaving lots of room for blameless distortion and misinformation - even involving the Seers themselves. Some contributors understandably have much personal investment in these minor side incidents which in the end are really not central to Garabandal.

That means the "Joey Prophecy " may never have truly been a prophecy in the first place. So it didn't fail and it wasn't fulfilled. It simply didn't exist anyway.
This would be assume by positions B(i) and C(i) and maybe A(i) above.

This of course raises issues, for some, about the veracity of the Seers re the major recorded prophecies.
Personally I see the link between the major events and the minor events like a car with automatic coupling between engine and wheels.
Stalling the wheels does not stall the engine. A gear transmission is different.
That is probably where the heart of this debate really needs to go.
Its really a question that involves Mystical theology/Philosophy to some extent and the nature of how well different mystical phenomenon are given, received and spoken into the frail human words of a world made imperfect by original sin.

BTW I believe the latter is also Aviso's position.
(Aviso cut me off at the knees if I have poorly paraphrased your position. I am relying on memory as I cannot find where I inferred that from your more recent writings on the Net).

 

"Its really a question that involves Mystical theology/Philosophy to some extent and the nature of how well different mystical phenomenon are given, received and spoken into the frail human words of a world made imperfect by original sin."

That is only true if you Do Not believe it is the Holy Spirit working through the mystic.

May Gods Will be Done

 

God gives us eyes to see indeed.

 

How did you reach this conclusion ?

Above I did little more than paraphrase the Mystical Theology of Cardinal Ratzinger given in the late 1990s (from memory) when speaking of this standard mystical insight wrt the operation of the Holy Spirit at Apparitions like Fatima.

Cardinal Ratzinger was in turn leaning on the Church's well accepted philosophical insights of Aquinas:
"Quid quid recipitur ad modum recipientis recipitur" (Summa Theologiae, 1a, q. 75, a. 5; 3a, q. 5) which my schoolboy Latin paraphrases as "a person understands something not in the way of the giver but in their own way and according to their own limitations.")

 

You might have paraphrased so much... you changed the meaning.

Brother al

 

You still haven't explained how you have come to your somewhat black and white personal opinion?

 

Blue,
Lets see if I can explain... You try very hard to use your intellect to discern and give personal opinion. So, that is good and well but that usually ends in the same place. Intellectuals can never accept or even comprehend the mystical because at least in this Catholic Forum...that takes faith. Its like the atheist who does not believe in God but tries as hard as he can to destroy faith. His goal of destroying the faith actually leads to his acknowledgment of a Living God. You say all the right things but your road block is your starting point. "Frail human words in-perfected by original sin"...that is probably 99.9 percent of us. But true Catholic mysticism changes the starting point. The .01 percent destroys the intellectual because mystical is not from this world.

Now going back to original thread. Did something happen in Garabandal? Yes - Can it be explained by the intellectual? No - Does it involve Catholic mysticism? Yes - Is it from God or from the "created one"? I tend to believe it was touched by darker forces.

My personal opinions are very black and white because of my starting point. By the grace of God, I was given faith.


In the words of the great philosopher padraig blah blah blah,blah blah,blah blah. (The Video ) Sorry padraig won't happen again

Brother al

 

But I would respond by asking you, what is more improbable: a global Warning that literally causes Time and Motion to come to a screeching halt as everyone at the same time has an interior illumination, followed some time later by a Miracle that has been described as the greatest since the Resurrection........or Joey being resurrected on the day of the Miracle in order to fulfill the prophesy - a type of miracle that was often performed by many of the Saints in public in the past.

I don't see any other way to get around this conundrum, for clearly there was never any doubt about the contents or importance of the Joey prophecy relayed to Conchita from the Blessed Virgin (allegedly, since we are dealing with an apparition that has not yet been approved) - the same Blessed Virgin who also prophesied the coming Warning and Miracle.