Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer kicked out of Christchurch, New Zealand

I think the humble recognized and followed Jesus. When I'm confused and wondering who to listen to, I look for humility. Padre Pio never spoke out publicly against the Church hierarchy, even as Vatican II was going on. I ponder that a lot.

 

Jesus never stopped speaking out against the religious authorities in his time often in the harshest possible terms. So did the Apostles. So did many of the Saints.
A for instance St John when he talks of the seven Churches and details their failings in very severe terms. St Paul in Acts, especially when he condemned St Peter to his face for cowardice and hypocrisy.

Where or where did we ever get the weird, pink idea that being nice was the same thing as being holy?

Go ponder that.

Galatians 2:11-13

Paul Confronts Peter
11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

 

I agree that each person has to discern for himself. It's a lifelong process with each new circumstance requiring a choice. Over the years I have stood up to a few things going on within local churches (like lesbian wedding blessings). I never thought of myself as one of those people who would but I think the Holy Spirit gave me strength. My fear is of chickening out in the future. Maybe that's why The Final Battle is on my mind.

Also, maybe those disenfranchised clergy arethe white martyrs whose suffering invokes God's action to restore the Church.

 

To me these stances come from a very feminized culture.

My best example of this are all the families where the mother is dominant and the dad submissive. Father Ripperger says it's the case in about 90% of households now. It's very destructive but so pervasive in all of our culture. The sin of Eve.

 

It took decades for people to speak up about the sodomizing of children happening in the church because of obedience. Meanwhile the abused had no one fighting for them.

 

There is always a good reason for doing a bad thing and a bad reason for doing a good thing.

one reason hell is garnering such a collosal harvest at the moment

 

I completely agree. I've seen people speak up for the Truth and those who pray and keep their silence, both of which can be done humbly with full confidence in God.

I talk way too much about all of this, both on the forum and at home, but am trying to learn from those I see have a lot of humility and charity.

 

But just a few minutes ago you were saying about 'Never speaking out'?

'Padre Pio never spoke out publicly against the Church hierarchy, even as Vatican II was going on. I ponder that a lot.'

But this seems to have shifted from a big, 'never', to speaking out to it's sometimes fine?

After having a good pondering ,which is it?

 

That was definitely Jesus' prerogative, and the Apostles' job, to teach and even chastise their fellow prelates and those under their authority. I absolutely wish more prelates with authority were speaking the Truth to one another publicly. Perhaps many of them are doing so privately and we just don't know about it!

The case of the order disobeying their bishop is another situation entirely, IMO.

I ponder Padre Pio's silence a lot because my natural inclination is actually to want to criticize. And he is my spiritual father and I want to learn from him.

Your quote from St. Catherine of Siena is a good one, but the context is good to provide as well, because she was speaking here privately in a letter to a prelate high up in the Church. It was actually reading St. Catherine of Sienna's "Dialogues" with God the Father that really shocked me with how strongly God forbade us from ever speaking badly of His prelates, no matter how sinful or corrupt they were. His instruction was to love and respect them, pray and sacrifice for them, and leave all of the judgment to Him entirely.

ETA: And in typing all this out, I realize that maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the order that is disobeying their bishop, either. I probably should only have prayed for them.

 

So we can only criticise in silence, when no one else knows? So Cardinal Burke was wrong? Bishop Schneider , all the Bishops ,Cardinals academics the legions of priests and layfolk who spoke out they were wrong to do so?

Is this what you ponder?

It does not matter what evil comes from the Vatican, the holy thing is to shut up and take it on the chin?

I mean really? Is this where your pondering has led to you to?

 

I'm not sure if you're reading my actual words, Padraig.

 

I think obedience especially when one is in the right is a form of suffering. Perhaps this order is being asked by the Lord to suffer in their obedience. Their willingness to suffer might save more souls than ever on their own efforts? Its a mystery why God allows events in our lives. If we picked what we wanted, it would be a disaster for most of us. I never would have asked the Lord to allow a crash that injured my wife and I like it has, but now i see how the suffering he graced me with was a sign of His great love for me. Maybe this order has been selected by God to be a great sign to the world if they place trust in Him. Believe me ... i don't know anything anymore... only that God exists and He loves each of us immensely .

 

I think I have and they make me very,very uneasy indeed. They appear to me to suggest that silence in the face of great evil is somehow humble and right.

The origin of Padre Pio's silence was this. His Archbishop was a child molester who used to support Padre Pio a lot. He went to Padre Pio in confession and the saint chased him shouting at him in a very loud voice. This was observed by many people in the Church at the time and was the cause of much comment. The archbishop bolted. But that was the start of the great persecution, that Padre Pio did speak out.

Later the Archbishop (the then Archbishop of Manfredonia) molested yet another altar boy, a mob broke into his palace and the archbishop got beaten up including a broken nose.

But from the on Padre Pio's card was well and truly marked. Not for having kept silent but for having spoken out.

The same thing happened in Medugorje. The Bishop there supported the visionaries to the hilt. Then he went on a visit and there was this sudden weird switch , just like Padre Pio under very suspicious circumstances.

I don't see the least thing wrong in discussing things like this .

Again in the life of St John Bosco the then Archbishop of Turin had went to seminary with St John and they had been close friends. But when John Bosco became famous the Archbishop went insane with jealousy against him and did everything he could do to close him down. Only the personal intervention of the then Pope Saved St John Bosco's bacon.

 

Padre Pio yelled at and chased many people out of the confessional. That's different from publicly criticizing and condemning our Church leaders. He stayed silent and obeyed when he was unjustly deprived of being able to offer public Masses, though with his ability to read hearts he knew the real reasons for his persecution. Even Jesus Himself remained silent when He was accused by the Jewish leaders.

In the eyes of the world, staying silent in the face of persecution is utter madness. But in the eyes of God, it is of tremendous value and often bears more spiritual fruit than speaking.

 

No you are very,very much mistaken. You are drawing from a particular situation to a general. Padre Pio's situation was that of a particular saint who was called to be a victim soul for the salvation of the
Church.

Your ponderings have led to the greatest lack of charity and support towards those who have the courage and zeal to defend Our Holy Mother the Church at this present time.

You wish to silence and attack those who should most be blessed for having spoken out. Those who you should support and have a grave duty to do so.

Is it not enough that these wicked , Satanic people urge silence and enforce it by the most malign persecution without you yourself aiding them? Shame on you.


May God forgive you, you have mistaken being nice and being loving. . May the Holy Spirit enlighten you.

'Speak the truth with clarity and love'.

 

There is a different perspective that you likely already know, but I think is worth bringing up. Most often people don't want to criticize because most people do not like conflict. So it becomes a cross, something we are called to pick up and carry. So when we see these conflicts in the church, especially involving the highest offices like the Pope, we can often come to the conclusion that someone is behaving like a jerk. But the person doing the criticizing is sacrificing themselves in the process. Someone like AB Vigano might seem like a jerk at times, but he really sacrificed himself by speaking out. Often we are called to do what is uncomfortable. Many bishops and cardinals have done nothing but tow the company line in the last 13 years, while the few who spoke out found themselves canceled. They could have remained silent like the rest but had courage for Christ. I don't think remaining silent is done out of respect to the church but rather because it is comfortable.

Thomas Moore is a saint because he went against the king and he paid with his life.

 

Yes, it can definitely have uncomfortable repercussions when people speak the truth. So in this case, with this order, perhaps they are being unfairly driven out of the diocese by a spiteful bishop for teaching the truth. I don't know. The point I'm trying to make is that humbly obeying the bishop is most likely of more spiritual benefit than speaking out against the bishop in a public letter and choosing disobedience.

I don't know about you, but I find it very easy to criticize. This is something I struggle with myself. It is harder to bite my tongue than to speak up for what I believe is right. So I'm constantly having to check my own motives and pride and spend time praying about what God really wants me to say vs. staying silent. So that's the perspective I'm always coming from.

It certainly does seem that a large number of our bishops and priests are too afraid to speak the truth. They are the ones I wish were teaching the Truth boldly. I think it can be done without directly criticizing the pope in most cases, but who knows what's going on in their minds and hearts. This is a terrible time to be a prelate amidst all this confusion, and they need our prayers badly.

I've just been speaking here about this particular situation, with the traditional order and their bishop, and in this case I think the saints would say humble obedience is the right thing to do.

Obviously there are other opinions here, and I don't think mine is so important that I need to keep defending it. So I will bow out of the discussion for now.

 

How is, 'speaking out against a Bishop' when he does something wrong, wrong? So if he is covering up child abuse, or being a paedophile himself? If he is conducting financial Fraud? If he is speaking heresy? If he is running the local Mafia? If he is living with a rent boy(as many of them are)? Should we keep silence?

Keeping silence about such things is good? Have your ponderings driven you mad?

https://caliber.az/en/post/peru-bishop-quits-after-vatican-probes-17-mistresses-church-fund-scandal



Peru bishop quits after Vatican probes 17 mistresses, Church fund scandal
08 October 2025 01:02
A senior Catholic bishop in Peru has resigned following explosive allegations that he maintained secret relationships with 17 women, misused church funds, and even ran a business on the side using church property.

Bishop Ciro Quispe López, 51, of the Diocese of Juli, submitted his resignation to Pope Leo after a Vatican investigation uncovered evidence of inappropriate sexual relationships and possible embezzlement. The scandal erupted after several of the bishop’s alleged lovers discovered each other, leading to confrontations that helped bring the issue into public view, The Times reveals.

“A nun who was one of Quispe’s lovers was jealous of a lawyer the bishop was also seeing and sent information about his affairs to a third lover who got into a fight with the lawyer,” said Paola Ugaz, a prominent Peruvian journalist who reviewed Vatican documents related to the case.

The Vatican inquiry followed a report by Sin Fronteras journalist Kevin Moncada.

As part of its investigation, the Vatican reviewed audio messages, photographs, and videos allegedly sent by Quispe to the women. According to Infobae, one message reportedly includes the bishop admitting to having had intercourse in his official residence.

Ugaz revealed that Quispe mistakenly sent some explicit content meant for his lovers to his cleaning lady, who subsequently reported him to church authorities. According to Moncada, the cleaning lady confirmed inappropriate activity within the bishop’s quarters.

Quispe has denied all allegations, calling them part of a defamation campaign orchestrated by “dark hands.”

Appointed by Pope Francis in 2018, Quispe had previously been under Vatican scrutiny for alleged financial misconduct. According to Ugaz, he was investigated for using church chairs in a chicken restaurant linked to him.

The bishop also faced accusations from the Aymara Indigenous community of misusing United Nations funds meant for their development.

“He gave back money, which is rare in Peru, but it was because they threatened to lynch him and the Aymara are known for keeping to their word,” Ugaz added.

 

This is a good conversation IMO, personally I am enjoying it. There is a tension between obedience and obeying your conscience, and discovering where that is by everyone adding their perspective helps. Especially given that there are plenty of historical examples where there has been overreach, sometimes at extreme levels, by church authority.

Personally I would rather not have to say anything than to criticize. I thank God for those who do because they put themselves on the line. For me if I don't say anything my conscience starts to feel guilty. I haven't said anything about what is going on in this situation because the news is still coming out. Accusations of unauthorized exorcisms and abuse from the Bishop. SOTMHR says they are being persecuted for practicing the TLM and repudiating a bunch of stuff. Looks like the bishop needed these guys out and found any excuse he could, and given the nature of the Vatican they backed him up on it. That and he probably didn't like that SOTMHR were poaching donations from his coffers.

Would it have been better to be obedient to the bishop? I don't think so for the SOTMHR. They need to follow their conscience. I think they need a diocese that has a more traditionally leaning bishop. This is my opinion. It's too bad it came down to being expelled, but wokism is vogue. I am sure there is a bishop out there who will be happy to have these guys.

 

4th Century Arian Crisis: Catholic Laity vs Arian Bishops