Did Pope Francis show his hand on Medjugorje?

An interesting discussion.

I don't think there was a Marian Apparition in history that did not provoke debate.

It's the same with the lives of the saints. If I were to read the life of a saint were he/she was not attacked I simply would not believe in them.

There's an old saying too which I believe in very much.

'No one is stupid' .
I believe it more and more as I get older.

Well when I was in Medugorje there was some six thousand Irish people there, I would say all believers in the apparitions. Now the apparitions have been going on since 1981. How many millions of pilgrims, none of them stupid, many of them priests, bishops and Cardinals. ..and in all that time after what must be thousands of messages these kids have been found in no theological irregularities.

What is that old saying,

'You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time'.

I can't believe a scam on this scale could be carried out successfully. It is the same with folks who said Jesus was a fraud. You only have to look at the evidence objectively.

 

I would pay more attention Rino if you could provide proof for what you are saying.

Can you prove to us on the forum that Vicka has real estate valued 5 - 10 million Euro?

I await in eager anticipation.

 

Rino I am confussed in what you said. Do you say you don't believe in private apparitions and don't believe in Lourdes or Fatima only what the bible says and reveals?

 

Rino, you need to research the Catholic faith teachings more deeply, because Satan cannot perform miracles, only God can do this. Whatever Satan or any of his followers do is not a miracle, but deceit through science or other natural means. Also, I wish you would not call the seers of Medjugorje 'liars', because this is not charity that comes from God. Satan is the father of lies and to make a claim to call anyone a liar, especially those who may be receiving messages from heaven, is an evil in itself.

 

This is going to sound strange Rino; but are you a priest?

 

wonderful!! Fr. Charles is a loyal and devout member of the Marian Movement of Priests. As a matter of fact, he runs the Priests retreat in Illinois once a year. Lovely man!

 

Satan and his brood are capable of orchestrating preternatural phenomenon: things like visions and levitations and superior strength, talking in unknown languages, etc. It is perfectly within Satan's power to appear in visible form if God allowed it.

As for the Medjugorje seers being or not being liars, I think Bishop Peric's 1997 statement speaks volumes:


"On the basis of the serious study of the case by 30 [academics], on my episcopal experience of five years in the Diocese, on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the “Madonna,” on the unusual repetition of “messages” for over 16 years, on the strange way that the “spiritual directors”of the so-called “visionaries” accompany them throughout the world making propaganda of them, on the practice that the “Madonna” appears at the “fiat” (let her come!) of the “visionaries,” my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate (“no evidence of the supernatural”) but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate (“evidence of the non-supernatural character”) of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje."

 

David and Rino,

You a right to believe/not believe. I am not questioning your motives, I assume you are well-meaning. As for me and my family, we will remain obedient to the pope on Medj and I remain thankful for the gift of Medjugorjie in my life. I once met a man named Phil Kronzer who claimed to have lost his wife to Medj and he was very bitter about it. I was truly sorry for him , however , for me , only blessings have come from Medj.

 

That's my point...Satan cannot perform miracles as Rino said. Trickery is not a miracle it is deceit. Miracles are happening in Medjugorje as I posted above. This his happening all the time there. This is a grace from God, not deceit from the evil one. These are the good fruits that our Lord indicated we must judge by.

 

Miracles might be happening at Medjugorje. There is no credible reason to believe they are in fact happening.

The local bishop has stated that the supernatural is NOT operative in these apparitions. He has stated that the non-supernatural is operative. The non-supernatural is only one of two things: natural or preternatural. Miracles have a supernatural origin, not a natural or preternatural origin.

 

David,

Earlier I posted that a woman I know, Coleen Willard was dying and went to Medj to die. After Vicksa touched/prayed over her she was healed. Documented at Mayo Clinc in Minnesota. You can believe in what you want but please do not ignore the facts. I believe that you have correctly quoted the local bishop, but the Vatican has taken it out of his hands. Get over it.

 

David and Reno, don't you believe in the church in Rome? They have taken Medjugorje out of this bishop's{a bishop who does not believe in Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima} hands for good reason. Medjugorje is not causing separation. These made up excuses, that people will leave the church if a ruling comes down from Rome against Medjugorje simply don't hold water. I have never met nor read of a person, priest or layman whose conversion came through Medjugorje and followed the messages, who didn't have a deep love for Holy Mother Church and who wouldn't lovingly obey the Church and I dare say lay down their life for the Church, which I find sadly lacking in so many in the Church. A great love of Holy Mother Church is a gift given by Our Lady, particularly to people who follow her messages and are praying as she has taught in her school of prayer. I think this gift of love of Church is being given to people to prepare us for the times coming ahead. But satan is causing division,and doing all he can get to discredit Medjugorje and so cause division. satan hates what has come about from Medjugorje, people returning to the Church, to the sacraments, Adoration, reading the bible, praying and prayer groups around the world.

satan is doing miracles there?

"[A] blind and dumb demoniac was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, 'Can this be the Son of David?' But when the Pharisees heard it they said, 'It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.'

"Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, 'Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

"'And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

"'Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

"'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matthew 12:22-32).


If you are going to discuss the messages, then please give a quote instead of just saying what you have heard or think are the messages. You may read them here.
http://www.medjugorje.org/messagesall.htm

 

I can not prove that I am the owner of my property without the sales contract. I can only tell you what people are saying here. People say that it is owned building near the Hotel Ero which was previously owned by the Sarajevo Pivovarna, which alone is worth around € 3 million, to her house in Krehin Gradcu worth about a million €, that she combined real estate in Medjugorje estimated 2 million € , it said that there are several representative properties in Mostar, valid over a million €. I do not know which properties it has in other cities or in the Adriatic Sea, or what it has in other countries. I do not know if she's the owner of Sarajevo pivovarna although some people say that it is owned by Lady Vicka.

 

Jesus one time performed an exorcism and because f this was accused of doing this through the power of the devil:

Matthew 12
Jesus and Beelzebul

22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Note two things here. Jesus says:

If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

In other words the devil does not do good things , it is against his nature. If he did do good things like cures and exorcisms his kingdom would not stand .

But the second thing Jesus says is a grim warning concerning the sin against the Holy Spirit.

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

So beware lest by saying the work of the Holy Spirit is evil you are committing this sin a great evil.

For
anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Be very careful here because if you are guilty of calling good evil, the work of God the Work of Satan lest you fall into this sin, the sin that is not forgiven.

 

Every little better bioenergetics can remove symptoms, bioenergy from the standpoint of the church associated with Satan. Satan can produce apparent miracles, therefore, prove that something is God's miracle has its own procedure.

 

People said loads of bad things about Jesus too Rino. Do you believe them?

Rino ,are you a priest?

 

That's called heresay. Gossip, which is a sin and Catholic Christians should not be repeating.

 

This is an anonymous forum, I do not want to declare on this issue.

 

Titus 3:2

To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

 

I believe in Lourdes and Fatima.