Sometimes your eyes get opened a little wider when you least expect it. Sometimes the HS hits you with a 2x4 so your eyes open a little wider Since we are out of state we went to Mass not at our normal parish. It's California so we don't expect much here. Things are different. It occurred to me during Mass how Protestant-ized the Church has become. Of course, I have noticed it before, even in my own parish but my parish in AZ is pretty traditional and they don't steer away from the rubrics. At this parish, the amount of talking before Mass is alarming. It's like you are sitting in a museum waiting for a talk to begin and everyone is on their phone or chatting. Many are going pew to pew greeting each other and catching up with gossip. Then there is the new asst pastor of the parish celebrating. He introduced himself and went through his "story". He also gives a monologue before each reading and the Gospel to tell us what the readings were about. He didn't stand behind the ambo for the homily. He was mic'd and walked around the church giving the homily which was more of his "story". He did manage to relate today's Gospel in portions of it. They recited the Nicene Creed which surprised me. The sign of peace was the whole parish walked around shaking everyone's hands, leaving their pews and meandering around for 5 minutes. And then the end, the cross and candles processed out but the priest went row to row shaking people's hands instead of processing out and waiting in the back to shake hands. I remember during the homily I just prayed, "please Lord, I am distracted. Please enlighten me with something you want me to learn. I am so distracted and I am sorry to judge." Shortly after that it dawned on me that the church is so Protestant. Nothing is universal anymore. I can't go to another church in another town or state and be at the same Mass. Much is the same but A LOT is not. Obviously Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, etc but all the other stuff is so different from other Catholic parishes. It shouldn't be that way. I kept thinking it shouldn't be that way. It should be virtually the same except for language. It made me tear up. Now I have known about all of this and witnessed this, cognitively, but it hit home sitting there today. I thanked the HS for illuminating me. Not sure if that is what happened but I thanked the HS anyway....LOL. Question......do you think we are losing significant graces by not having the TLM mainly available? I know the NO is valid and that is what Mass I was raised with. I am post VII so the NO is what I am used to. I attend the TLM but it is a long way and I can't always go because of our commitment to the Youth choir but I go when I can. I just wonder if the TLM pours forth more graces, protection really. The prayers are so much more significant and deep and your focus is really on God and not on the priest or the pews or the music, etc. Just curious what people's thoughts were. One bright note is there were nuns there. There were quite a few sitting in the pews and they wore traditional white habits. My daughter leaned over seeing a few of them and said "Nuns are so cool"
I was graced to attend Latin mass today. I can hardly take the NO abuses these days. Just remember....God is in control here! Keep praying and keep the faith....no matter what abuses are before you. God is in control...not the clerics. He just asks us to remain faithful....be faithful!
Yes. I am sure there are more graces springing from the TLM. It’s the Mass of the Ages. Pope St PiusV promulgated it at the Council of Trent. But I attend the NO Mass in my parish. I am praying that my pastor will start offering the TLM. He knows how. You’ve done a good job of getting through that, Tanker.
So you hit on an interesting point Tanker. I too see a cross between a protestant meeting and some sort of humanist get together that seems to hinge on the getting together of the congregants who many times show up in their flip flops and tank tops this time of year often leaving after communion but before the mass has ended. The new mass seems to me nothing more than the chasing after of the protestant service. I drive 45 minutes to get to the Tridentine Mass and I do it at least twice per week and I thank God for those who fought to keep it all these years. I would drive twice that if needed it is so dear to me. I admit, I have become intolerant to the new mass. The last new mass I attended I sat and wondered through most of it, how can this mass actually be pleasing to God? That is the point after all - to offer up to God a Mass that is pleasing to Him. My "home" parish which was the most Orthodox parish I could find has visiting priests on a regular basis who wander the isle like an inspirational speaker and run the mass as if it is a HS pep rally interacting with the congregation. Who actually encourage disruption and laughter from the congregation by offering the excuse of keeping people awake in the pews. But, the most striking thing in the new mass to me is that there is very little quiet time to pray and offer up to God our cares and most importantly our worship of Him. Then, at communion there are a veritable host of E.M.'s to assist in communion and then at the end they simply walk off giving no reverence or visible sign that they have handled the Body of Our Lord and could have particles of Him remaining on their hands that should be handled with the utmost care and most importantly reverence. When the Mass is over it is like a concert hall with zero consideration for anyone who has remained to pray and give thanks to God or to offer special prayers to the Saints on others behalf. It is so loud and distracting that it is impossible to pray and it goes on and on and on. It is infuriating. So, I have become intolerant and rigid. I refuse to attend the new mass.
Being a cradle Catholic and not having attended many Protestant services, what would I look for if the Mass were to become more Protestantized? Less reverence toward the Eucharist and Christ's presence and more emphasis on community and fellowship?? I have seen various Liturgical abuses over the years; some from liberal minded priests, others from priests seemingly well meaning, but ignorant. But I hope that any subtle changes over time won't prevent me from noticing the creeping Protestantism within the Church.
I think that the Graces are there as long as the proper words and proper intention and proper matter are there but the amount of grace is not the same. It is scary.
AED...your cautions are so important here. On the way home from mass yesterday, we were discussing this very thing...proper intention, proper matter and proper words. That all of these are the correct forum is the difference between a valid mass and a invalid mass. If you are uncertain that the church you attend is offering a VALID mass, do everything you can to find one that is. What sad times we are living in. God help us.
You are correct: less reverence toward the Real Presence and more emphasis on community and fellowship and that dreaded word: “service”. Some of this is a sign of the times, though. I am a convert. From about 1958 until 1962 I attended the Episcopal Church. I was 10 years old in 1958. No one socialized in the church before, during, or after the service. They did socialize afterward outside or in the hall. The service was according to the old form of worship which was similar to a Catholic Mass but had no consecration since there was no valid priesthood. But the respect in church was there. Business attire, women wore hats. Things went to hell in the later 60s. I became Catholic in 1963, a few years before the destruction was noticeable.
The TLM, in my opinion, does not intrinsically pour out more graces, the Holy Sacrifice is represented and Holy Communion is available. I daresay that I find Eucharistic Prayers II and III shallow, without much depth. Eucharistic Prayer IV's inclusion of salvific history before the Consecration is a true gem, but I still favor Eucharistic Prayer I with the expanded list of saints the best. My pastor uses "I" 95% of the time, "IV" next, and then "II" and "III" rarely, and even then the last 2 might be used only on weekdays. One aspect of the TLM which aids us with focused prayer, is the fostering of sacred silence and its ability to restrain personalized add-ons that distract. I find the customary fellowship within church just after the end of Holy Mass deplorable. At a TLM this is quite constrained! Thanks be to God! I should add that distractions do infringe on one's ability to internalize the graces made present at Novus Ordo Masses. Safe in the Representation of the Holy Sacrifice.
In hindsight as a convert (and a recent one at that) the services I attended at various protestant denomination churches over the years when looking back at them did not resemble in any way that of the true church but the lack of reverence we sometimes see today does. It was not until I became Catholic that I ever experienced reverence for the house of God (and I had to search for it from place to place) and His physical presence there in the mystery of the Eucharist. I do believe Lord, help my unbelief. Before and after every protestant service I attended the hall is irreverent. There are few to no people there in prayer petitioning God and his Saints or praying the rosary. Why is this? Because the real presence of God is not present in their non existent tabernacle. They have no tabernacle and no Body of Christ present, only a table. One might as well pray in the parking lot because essentially it is just as sacred a place as the protestant gathering place. There is no bloodless sacrifice there for the atoning of sins and the people meet to simply listen to the minister who many will not understand anyway due to his (or her) modernist interpretations of scripture and then they go their way. The protestant service reminds me of the various scenes I have watched in movies over the years of Jesus teaching in the synagogue. Before and afterward, the place is a sort of pandemonium. Why? Because the Synagogue unlike the Jewish Temple did not contain the presence of God. It was a place to meet and to read the scripture and to discuss and discern and maybe even make a lucrative business deal as well. In the Jewish Temple the priest alone on the day of atonement would enter the presence of God and make the prayers and offerings to Him on behalf of the people and afterward return to the people who remained outside praying for him. Just like what happens at the Tridentine Mass. At the point when the priest begins the canon there is nothing we can offer to it. He faces the Tabernacle, and it is for the priest alone to accomplish this task on all our behalf, he has entered into the Holy of Holies to pray and offer to God the bloodless sacrifice of Our Lord, the Lamb of God on behalf of the whole church to God. To plead to God to accept it as He did that of Abel, Abraham, and Melchizedek before Him. The priest can (and does) perform the sacrifice of the Mass without a single person present and yet still on behalf of the whole Church. We assist in the Mass with our prayers, petitions, and offerings but we are not indispensable. The priests duty to God on our behalf is literally indispensable and yet today the priest's role is often viewed as simply the leader of the congregation. Ever more resembling the protestant minister. Graces poured out are for God to determine in the measure of our faith and devotion. This is only visible to Him alone. What is Holy should be treated as Holy and not as common or we may well end up like Uzzah.
The fact that the sacrifice of the mass is not taught anymore, is key to the times soon approaching when the false prophet and antichrist introduce the protestant version of the mass, called the abomination of desolation. Their intent is not to eliminate worship, rather it is to Protestantize the mass, so no literal blood sacrifice is taking place in public worship. It's that simple.
Right. The Mass was called, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. How long since we've heard that in general? I always hear "liturgy". It downplays the fact that the Mass is the same sacrifice as Christ on Calvary. Good post.
But what verbiage should we be looking out for??!! In many churches people hear reference to the "Supper" of the Lamb. That is also broadly written into our hymns. Yes it is a memorial of the Last Supper, but to what extent does that take center focus over the actual sacrifice? Yet, while my family was meeting to plan our Mom's funeral last week, choice of people to bring up the gifts was brought up. My sisters of course needed 101 lesson on this, as I had previously shared in an email with him. He instructed them that the Gifts of bread and wine should be brought up and presented to him by 2 people who actually believe it becomes the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ. I must say, as disappointed as I have been with his level of progressiveness, this was a great relief and joy for me to hear. I was very good and "kept a lid on myself". They appreciated his education and agreed. Who knows, maybe they'll think twice before presenting themselves at future weddings and funerals. Maybe this is all part of their spiritual growth I have asked our Mom to further influence, now that she is in a far closer position to petition the Holy Spirit.
I do notice the differences more when I attend other parishes. But this Sunday I was thinking that it should really be very, very similar and possibly only language and music would be different. It seems that all the "options" for which readings, long or short versions, which Eucharistic prayers, leave the Kyrie in or take it out, etc. seems to make the Mass different at each church and thus appear more "like" all the other 130,000 Protestant denominations. I am just thinking out loud here because I know the NO is a valid Mass (with some possibly being invalid). I have only known the NO until the last few years as I was born in the 70's. I am noticing more these days, and especially this weekend when I was out of our element, all the differences. They are probably minor but it makes me curious. I have attended many Protestant services....Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Calvary Chapel type mega churches over the years. Mostly I was asked by friends to attend their church because they were proud or were involved in something at their churches. All those services always felt like a type of conference. There was singing and preaching and more singing, altar calls, come down and accept Jesus calls, and the services were nice. Lots of fellowship and friendliness and things like that. Even when I was away from the CC, these other services did not draw me away. I never have wanted to be anything other than Catholic. I have always identified as Catholic, even if I was a bad Catholic....lol. So the NO Mass still provides the right stuff, so to speak. But I think we are really missing out on a lot of depth with the NO Mass. Gosh I hate to say that because the NO is perfectly acceptable but it is missing the mark IMO. I try really hard to block out the distractions and it is so hard. I offer it up all the time and try and re-focus. This might be silly but maybe the old rite Mass offers more depth, more prayerfulness, being more attune to God and therefore gets us through the week better, until the next Mass the following Sunday. This feel good stuff is so superficial.
Joan: In the book God Speaks Will You Listen our Lord had this to say about the abomination of desolation and how you will know it: www.godspeakswillyoulisten.org 6/27/07 Now let me clear up an area of confusion for you. Daniel 12:11. And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days. The continual sacrifice is the mass and the abomination of desolation is when the doctrine of the mass is changed in my church- the Roman Catholic Church. If you study church history, this doctrine of the mass is the one Satan has tried to destroy. From the time of the early church until now. This is how you can recognize the abomination of desolation. A False Prophet or Anti-pope will proclaim the protestant doctrine of the mass to be correct. This is the one teaching that will change. The rest of my churches teachings can stay the same. Satan knows how to deprive my children of everlasting life, deprive my children of my presence. This is how the man of sin, the son of perdition will sit in the temple of God. Reference II Thessalonians 2:4-10. He will attempt to lead my people to deny my presence in the Eucharist and to teach the mass is only a symbol. This is Antichrist. This will bring the wrath of God on the children of disobedience. This will cause the unleashing of the bowls of divine justice. My sacrifice of the mass daily holds back my Father ’s justice. Luke 18:8. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? Will I find any of my children, who I recognize with my life in them? Will there be faith left in my holy sacrifice? These are the questions which need to be pondered. My son, a false Christian church will be forced on the people. A gospel of prosperity and a make you feel good gospel will be preached. My churches can be filled with people, but the churches will be dead because I am not there. Without my presence in the churches, God does not dwell in the churches. Then, these sheep who hear my voice will be forced to worship in underground churches where I will be present. This truly is the abomination of desolation and Antichrist. Then I will come with the brightness of my coming, destroy this false church, and restore my church according to my will. Then you will see an era of peace. A Eucharistic era of peace where I will reign in the hearts and mind of my people in the holy Eucharist. You must believe all these words I am teaching you and the teachings of my church or you will not enter my era of peace. Ponder these words or I may say to: I NEVER KNEW YOU. The words of the Lord. I bless you Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. AMEN. 11/6/07 Many teach the Antichrist will resume the Jewish sacrifice in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to constitute the abomination of desolation. This is a false teaching, not from God, but from human understanding. My son, in the book of Daniel, the persecution by the Jews under Antiochus can be considered a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation. But the complete fulfillment has not yet taken place. At my death, the veil in the temple was rent in two and the old sacrificial covenant was replaced by my new covenant. My sacrifice on the cross was the final sacrifice for my peoples’ sin. I am the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. I am the seed of Abraham, the son of David, in whom all the nations of the earth are blessed. My nation of Israel is my church, not the modern nation of Israel. My people are now all those who become part of my church through sanctifying grace. The complete fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel of the abomination of desolation will occur: when the continual sacrifice of the mass is abolished by the False Prophet and the Anitchrist. Acceptance of the protestant doctrine of the mass by an antipope will be the fulfillment of the prophecy. The temple of God is my Holy Roman Catholic Church. My faithful remnant will be persecuted worldwide with the mass taking place underground. These conditions will be similar to the early persecutions by the Romans. The Roman persecutions were a foreshadowing of the persecution and time of the Antichrist. Remember all this will be allowed and take place according to the will of my Father in heaven. Scripture must and will be fulfilled. However it won't take place until after the Warning 10/5/07 AM Remember my message to you from 4/07. Elijah and the widow of Sareptha survived for 3 1/2 years only by my divine grace and intervention. So it will be with you and your family. To answer a question for you: all who take the mark of the beast are forever cast into hell. This is what my word states. This will occur because mankind will be warned not to follow Satan and the Antichrist. By rejecting the warning, you are rejecting God’s mercy and incurring his divine justice. Never before in history has a generation received such graces. Only at the general judgment is an ungodly soul aware of his sin committed against my commandments. But the warning will occur where every soul will experience a preview of their judgment if it had occurred at that instant. Then each soul will be given an opportunity to repent. Mercy will stop for many because all flesh will truly know I exist. After the warning, by accepting the mark of the beast, you will be condemned to hell because you have rejected my mercy in its fullest expression. My son, I give you a private prophecy. Share it at my leading. The Antichrist is rising to power as I speak to you. He is hidden until revealed according to my Father’s will. Many natural disasters have and will continue to occur. Then you will experience the warning. After the warning, rejecting my mercy will cause you to take the mark of the beast. You will then experience the abomination of desolation and a fierce persecution of my faithful Catholics by: lukewarm Catholics, Protestants who are apostate, and the followers of the Antichrist. After my two witnesses battle the forces of Satan, you will see my two witnesses killed and taken up into heaven. Woe to those who are alive during those days. Without my mercy, no flesh would survive. My Father’s wrath will be unleashed on the ungodly and sinner. I will then, with the brightness of my coming, cast the Antichrist and his followers into hell forever. As a result, the world will experience 3 days of darkness and my creation purified of evil. Nature and my people will be healed. Then my son, the era of peace will take place where my faithful will be resurrected and rewarded in the first resurrection.
I forgot that I had watched Joel Olsteen on tv quite a few years back. It struck me at the time that it was very much of a feel good, self help type of service. Not much mention of God, sin, etc. I was quite refreshed this past weekend when our new parish priest mentioned the devil several times during his homily. So many people, especially some of the youth, don't seem to see the point in being good for the sake of virtue and pleasing God. IMHO, the fear of hell helps to nudge people in the right direction!
I love old Churches. The older the better. I find they help prayer, but in eithercase I just love old things anyway. I do find at the Latin Mass there tends to be no tal or distraction. On the other hand I find some of the priests there can be, well.. a little too fierce for my liking. When I was at school they were very strict about talking in Church. Even about how you dressed, I remember it quite well. Most of the people I see at daily mass are from my generation I am not sure how they forgot the teachings of their school days so easily. But as far as talking in Church goes it is the Priests and nuns who often are the worst offenders so I suppose the lay folk should not be blamed too much.
The difficult yis perhaps that it is the talkers who draw attention, the ones who are reverent and quiet you tend not to notice.
No surprise there, considering that EP II was hurriedly composed/ 'fixed' in a few hours in a Roman trattoria! https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...form-as-seen-by-one-of-its-protagonists-23302 Among the incidents recalled by Fr. Bouyer in his memoirs is the composition of Eucharistic Prayer II. “It was Bouyer who had to fix in extremis a horrible formula of the new Second Eucharistic Prayer, from which Bugnini wished to expunge even the 'Sanctus',” Magister wrote. “And one evening, on the table of a trattoria in Trastevere, he had to rewrite the next of the new canon which is read today at Mass, together with the Benedictine liturgist Bernard Botte, with the added worry of having to deliver the whole thing by the following morning.”
