You just said you don't have access to the seers bank accounts. Then you said Ivan hasn't got millions. If you don't have access to his account, how do you know? I don't have access to their accounts either, and I never said they do have millions. They probably don't have millions. I have never said anything about what car Ivan drives. But you just did. It's a BMW is it? hummm. But I will correct you on the FACT Ivan recieves enough money through his talks to keep him in his travels, PLUS. This is something I have witnessed first hand.
The Medjugorje Seers and an Unescapable “Conflict of Interests” by Marco Corvaglia It is quite clear that in the absence of a recognition by the Church, if the "apparitions" and the messages ended, it would lead to a gradual decline in interest in Medjugorje. This concept seemed somehow clear to Vicka by 1983 when, for the interview-book of Father Janko Bubalo, she stated: VICKA: Think about it: how would all this seem if the Virgin had appeared only ten or twenty times, and then disappeared. Why, in the hustle and bustle it would have been forgotten by now. [Janko Bubalo, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. The Seer Vicka Speaks of Her Experiences, Friends of Medjugorje, Chicago, 1987, p. 187] *****In 1991, the then "official" historian of Medjugorje and a great advocate of these apparitions, Father René Laurentin, speaking of the "spiritual risks" that the seers had to deal with, stated that Marija "had gone from the poorest family among all the visionaries to a condition of wealth that led her to a very different culture and to an easy and brilliant life" ["Eco di Medjugorje", No 84, July 1991, p. 6] and Ivan "has begun to like playboy clothing and has developed an exaggerated care for his own person" [ibid.]. In 1994, Father René Laurentin wrote: Ivan now owns a beautiful new house, which will allow him earn a living by hosting pilgrims. This is already the source of income for Mirjana, Ivanka, Vicka and soon Jakov. [René Laurentin, Dernières Nouvelles de Medjugorje, No 13, O.E.I.L., Paris, 1994, p. 24] Well, here is the problem: if the apparitions ceased, the visionaries (and many of their relatives) would find themselves deprived of the current sources of income, which support their families. Actually, like many people there, they own guesthouses, in which they accommodate pilgrims. On 16 June 2011, Italian TV (Rai News, L'Inchiesta - I misteri di Medjugorje) made known what follows: Given the large flux of pilgrims, Mirjana has recently expanded her hotel with a new wing. The new wing built by Mirjana, mentioned in the Rai News report, is a Class A guesthouse, which opened in the spring of 2011, and offers double and triple accomodations. Its name is Mirjana i Marko (ie, "Mirjana and Marko", after the name of the visionary and of her husband, Marko Soldo) and is located between Mirjana’s house and the one of the visionary Ivan's parents. Through this page people can book a stay in the new Mirjana’s guesthouse. *****On 18 August 2010, the BBC, during the program Newsnight, broadcasted an interview with Ivan Dragičević in Medjugorje. Here are two short fragments of the report: If it is true that the visionaries have to eat, it is equally true that – whether they like it or not – they are, in fact, inextricably in a "conflict of interest." ***** The entrance to the residence of Marija Pavlović-Lunetti, in Bijakovići In 2010, Marija Pavlović, who divides her time between Italy and Herzegovina, founded the Antares Association (reg. R-1003/10 of the Cantonal Ministry of Justice), with the aim of collecting, among the devotees of Medjugorje, funds for contributing to the construction of a center named "Magnificat" (for donations, also a bank account, titled “Antares Association”, has been opened at Banca Prossima, agency of Milan, Paolo Ferrari Square, 10 [IBAN IT42Q0335901600100000015985]). The "Magnificat" is being built on the land owned by Marija Pavlović, in back of her house in Bijakovići (the opening is scheduled for September 2012). It is presented as follows by the Italian newspaper L'Arena, in an article that advertises a meeting of Marija with the faithful: With the support of trusted persons Marija founded the Antares association, recognized by the local government, through which she intends to support the building of the center of hospitality and spirituality. It was conceived as a large conference room, chapel and rooms for seminars, courses and retreats, and accommodation for up to 120 people, with a staff dedicated to the practical needs and the assistance of the pilgrims. [Arriva la veggente di Medjugorje, by V. Zambaldo, "L’Arena", 21 August 2011] All this led the Diocese of Alessandria, in the person of the Bishop Msgr. Giuseppe Versaldi (now Cardinal), to issue, on 16 June 2011, a Clarification on Medjugorje by Msgr. Versaldi: As also in the Diocese of Alessandria some faithful and faith groups are involved in the events that have happened in Medjugorje since 1981, and go on pilgrimages there and meet here to practice their devotion to Mary and since recently in these meetings there is an alleged seer [...] I [also] ask the priests to not allow, during celebrations within our churches, offerings to be given to private persons (even if they are alleged seers), intended for private works, in order to avoid exploitation and suspicion. [La Chiesa e Medjugorje. Precisazioni del Vescovo, "La voce alessandrina. Settimanale di informazione e opinione della Diocesi di Alessandria", No 23, 17 June 2011, p. 12]Marco Corvaglia Updated on 24 March 2012
No, to have money is not a sin as Ivan asked, but it smells... Remember that if the have making profit out of this "apparitions" this is a big red flag for the Church. As far as I can see they do not have just money to maintain their children. They have much more. Look, I have four children but I could not afford having two houses in two different countries. I am a scientist, working every day and I have not enough money to pay my house!! For me, this is clear!
Oh no. I wanted to stop talking about this. This morning at Mass, the Priest said something as if he was talking directly to me. I felt I had to be diligent. REMEMBER. 32 people fill Ivan's hotel at 999USD for 7 nights equals nearly 32,000USD For one week. If his hotel is full for just 26 weeks of the year that comes to 832,000USD for just 6 months! I don't think his hotel is full for 12 months of the year, but if it was that equals 1,664,000USD I would think this is at least a million dollar a year income. In an earlier post above I said he probably doesn't have millions. But now I have done the sums. Now before anyone jumps up and say this is heresay. IT ISN'T HERESAY. I have found this information FIRST HAND. I tell you this with all my honesty, and with all my heart. I have 4 children too. I have only had enough money to feed my family and pay my bills. Holidays have been few and far inbetween. I am not complaining. I see myself as being rich because I have never been hungry and we have always paid our bills. Now I have spiritual jealousy. Why didn't Mary appear to me? The money I could have made. Seriously everyone. This is the truth. Is it Mary they are seeing? No. The Blessed Virgin would never permit such wealth. It goes against the Gospel teachings.
I thought Father Laurentin was in favor of Medjugorje? I have to admit, I do not like Caritas, was not impressed by them in the least.
Jose- Earlier in this thread you stated you could not understand why someone needed Medj to choose the path to conversion. I responded. I was wondering if my response helped you to see that I did need Medj to convert. I'm just curious to see if I helped you understand at all.
In all cases of accepted apparitions the seers were NOT living from them. Many tried to go to monasteries and others went on having a normal life. This is the very first one in which the seers are supported by the profit from their claims. Today I went for confession. The priest (unknown person to me) told me something very interesting. He said: Our Church is been insulted and is constantly under attack. You have to help the Church and you know how you can do it. I was very impressed. Now, I do not want to imagine what is the situation of the Church regarding the decision about Medjugorje. This is terrible. If the Church decides to declare the apparitions as fraud, what is going to happen with all the good fruits and all those people believing in Medjugorje? On the other hand, if the Church declares the apparitions true, think about the amount of people that see it a serious hoax, business and full of irregularities..... Won't this decision, if this is taken only because of the "good fruits", discredit the Church. In any case, I see bad consequences.... I hope that the Holy Spirit guide His Church.
Dear PotatoSack, I read your answer and forgive me if I did not react. I see you came across Medjugorje and this helped you to convert. This is fine. But it does not mean that the Virgin is appearing every day to Ivan. I cannot deny the good fruits of Medjugorje, but the point here is that those good fruits do not necessarily mean to be the consequence of the appartion of the Virgin. There are many institution of the Church, many religious groups having the same kind of conversions and they do not claim that the Virgin is appearing to them. Medjugorje has been well promoted. I hope you see my point. I have again a question (sorry as scientist is my job to ask) : If the good fruits are a sign of a true apparition... are they also occurring at the same extent in places of accepted apparitions like Fatima or Lourdes? Because if not (and I do not think this is the case despite the amount of pilgrims going to those places) the "good fruits" might not be linked to a real apparition but to some other factor already mentioned here....
Well, I was hoping my post conveyed a bit more than that...oh well. And for all the "promotion" you say Medj does...to this day I never would have heard of Medj except for my one friend. Perhaps it's the secular part of the US I live in and the secular friends that I have...really, unless you are on religious forums on the internet...how does one hear of Medj? I do feel some here are a bit obsessed with Medj in a very negative way. May I recommend you just put this in God's hands to resolve? It is His church...let Him sort it out? Trust in Him in this matter? REally pray about Medj instead of reading false rumors on the internet. You will never be able to prove Medj is true via scientific methods. You don't have access to seer's bank accounts and don't know the money they are pocketing. Just let it go...surrender it to God's hands...wait for the commission ruling.
Do not take me wrong, PotatoSack, I am not negative. I want to know the true. And I am not spreading rumors. They are facts. You know what I cannot accept?: Somebody pulling my leg with serious thing as the divine. I think is my duty to search for the true, for myself and for the Church. I do not need scientific methods to "validate" Medjugorje. but you did not answer my question....
This is a wonderful conversion story by my friend Dave. After hearing his story I instantly booked a trip to go and have not been the same since ( praise God!) It's on Mary TV so you have to get through the intro to get to the meat of it but it's worth your time...all 51 minutes of it. http://www.marytv.tv/MaryTV/fruit-of-medjugorje/318-fm023-10-01-12-david-leatherby-jr-conversion
This is exactly how I am feeling. I am not negative. But if I sound negative on Medjugorje, it's because it is a 'negative' apparition site. I too only want the truths. I am not spreading rumors. They are facts. I am very interested in this. With your priest encouraging you, Jose. I am having the feeling of being driven to spread the truth.
PotatoSack, There are alot of good ladies at the Churches who spread Medjugorje. That's how I learnt about it. "Obsessed with Medj" It frightens me! God's hand is in this to resolve it. We are God's workers. We are working to show you the truth. We don't have access to anyones bank balance. But I suggest you to calculate the sums. Money is the first of many things wrong with Medjugorje. I do agree with praying for Medjugorje. Pray for the seers. There are going to be alot of angry people.
No one has denied the 'good fruits' of Medjugorje. But you can not keep ignoring the "BAD FRUITS" too. Those bad fruits are rotten and stink!
The proof of the pudding is in the eating! Should the Church condemn Medjugorje I will be first to eat humble pie
In what way did I not answer your question Jose? With the path I was on, I never would have converted. Medj awoke me to my sinfulness, the need to change, and the love of God. Even when I started to convert, I didn't understand my faith. Medj taught me how to convert and the basics of my faith and with the secrets looming...that was extra motivation I needed. What part is still confusing you? Jane & Jose, In your search for the truth, I do feel you are getting caught up in the negative and ignoring the positive. All of the posts of personal conversion on this thread are completely minimized...while the "bad fruits" are maximized. Articles of priests that support Medj are minimized and priests opposed are maximized. The beautiful messages are minimized while a few unofficial messages you have issues with are maximized. Have you researched Vicka as thoroughly as you have Ivan? All of her suffering...and yet she is so joyful. What a beautiful witness to God. You are aware of Vicka's suffering, right? You say their is disobedience and we show you that there isn't any because the bishops authority has been removed...and you don't seem to accept this. You say rosary is not mentioned after a certain year...and it is shown to you where it is, but then you still have an issue because the messages says hold and not pray...Do you see why you give the impression that you simply don't want to believe in Medj? And you have the right to not believe in it. No one here is telling you to believe in Medj. I don't understand this deadline you have Jane, about the warning happening before the church has ruled on Medj and it will be too late. Too late for what? Why is this even a worry for you Jane? Sounds like you worry a lot about the future and things you can't control. We are called to focus on today and leave the rest to God. We only get the graces to get through the day. Today has enough problems of it's own. My concern has always been conversions that are stopped because of the negativity of these Medj threads in this forum or people scaring others away from following Medj. in general. I know what it is like to be lost and then found with Medj being the vehicle with which I found God, and I wouldn't want this denied to anyone. So, I took this to Jesus in adoration last night and left this problem with Him. I have a lot of peace now. If someone was meant to be converted via Medj, and they are discouraged to follow this path for whatever reason...God's got a Plan B for that person's conversion and that plan will be carried out. No more worries for me! After all, I have my own conversion to worry about!
I know when I was in the Oasis of Peace centre, my daughter was missing at the time. She was 16 and autistic. I was frantic. When I went to Medjorgorje I was in a terrible place, we had had to leave our home through victimization etc, I had been ill, my children have special needs and life threatening conditions. Someone had made a model of Christ on the cross. The hairs were growing on his legs! It was a life size model. When you walked in that place, (and I had lost mine) the peace just hit you. I was aware of this peace all around me, I didn't want to leave. I found a seat right at the front which was unusual as it was Easter time and the place was packed. I just knelt in the front row. All I had to give was gone. I was so broken. I just looked at this model at Christ, and I said to Him, what do you want from me? He looked back at me, real eyes! Blew me away. Tears filled His eyes and He just looked at me with so much compassion. I was blown away. I didn't know how to react. I was numb. I just remained there I looking at Him looking at me with such compassion and sorrow and yet here He was in a worse state than I, hated by the world, hanging on a cross. It is true that conversions can happen anywhere through any heart that is open to God, even if one was in the midst of evil God is there because one person is praying and He is within that person. But.. God doesn't perform miracles like that in bad places! God does not back up the lies of someone. It is impossible for Him to do that as He is Truth. He can be nothing else. Because there is not one falsehood in Him. He is perfect love. Yes it is true that if the devil can do miracles and make signs in the sky. We know this from scripture. But He cannot cause conversions, He HATES confession. This is the best weapon against him! He cannot cast himself out of people as he wants to own people, his pride and his bitterness at God wouldn't permit him to do this, in the same way that being that God is Truth and love, He cannot do anything contrary to this or He wouldn't be Truth and Love anymore. Although the devil can do somethings, he cannot look at someone with love and compassion because there is absolutely none in him. I have a peace when I read the messages, I often feel Mother Mary's presence when I am about to be 'hit' with something else, sometimes I can feel the presence of angels and even God around me when I am going through a lot of difficulties or I am about to receive bad news. I am not worried if anyone believes the last paragraph. I know that God is with me in everything, I know He gives me consolations, and sometimes they come so gently like a deep assurance in my heart that He will see me through everything. This assurance is His knowledge within me and my trust in Him. We need to be very careful of slander or taking away someone's good name without absolute proof, God looks on this very seriously.
Dear Potatosack, I think I was clear enough. I do not deny good fruits. But i do not think the Virgin is appearing to Ivan or to Vika everyday. I already made my points and I won't insist. Jose
Hello PotatoSake, I will try to explain this a clear as what I can. Forgive me if it takes a few posts. But i have to try and do this right. To help you. Remember. I went to Medjugorje last year. I was a believer in Medjugorje until about March this year. Firstly, I DIDN'T want to 'NOT BELIEVE'. I would much prefer to think it is authentic. But I did not want to follow a lie. The first thing I did was pray. I ask the Lord to show me the truth. My prayer was answered. But I continue to ask for this gift nearly every day when I offer at the mass. I can not trust in my own self here. I need God to guide me. 1. You think in my search for the truth, I have been just caught up in the negatives and have ignored the good fruits of Medjugorje. The good fruits, I have not ignored. I have indeed looked at all the good fruits to the point I question my own verdict. If you read all my posts, I think you can see I have been very fair, and opened minded. Earlier I was very keen to hear from others who believe in Medjugorje. I wanted to hear why I could be wrong. Answer this question. Do you think I want to listen to what Our Lady has to say? To listen to Her so I can be guided to Heaven to be with Her Son Jesus. There is the Holy Spirit or the Evil Spirit, there is Heaven or Hell. In the end no other. It would not be in my best interest to condemn something Divine. So I would be such a fool to ignore the good fruits, just like you would be a fool to ignore the bad fruits. After Aviso posted a video with a comment on "you can't see Our Lady's feet" and "Satan can disguise himself in many ways but can not hide his feet". I opened that question out to everyone. I asked the question. "Is this true?" No one responded. I didn't know much about the devil, but because no one gave me an answer, I was left believing it is true. Then days later, back on the last page, someone said to me Our Lady didn't show her feet in Fatima. Now I don't know if this is true or not. I was going to look into this comment. But I didn't because 'the feet' weren't the reason for me not believing. So I gave this statement the benefit f the doubt. This feet thing. I haven't mentioned as a form of new debate. I brought it up again as more of as proof that I am being fair. Can you, do you understand this? You said. "All the personal good fruits of converions are minimized, while the bad fruits are maximzed" I haven't gone back to where we first talked about Medjugorje on this thread. But on memory, I don't think this happened early, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I know it has happened of late. I apologise if it seemed rude. Personally, I was feeling frustrated. I felt as it people weren't hearing. But as God as my witness, this wasn't done as to hide the good fruits. I believe the stories of the good fruits. But I feel it is through these 'good fruits' Satan has his plans. (I am not saying people who were converted are Satan's people) I have to get ready for morning mass now. I have guests staying in our home this month, so it is hard to spend time on the computor without looking rude. I will answer the rest of your questions as soon as I can though. But if I can finish with this true story...... In Australia, we have outlaw bikies. To be initiated, they have to perform some act. Which is either murder, rape etc.. They have alot of money which is usually brought in by buy growing, importing, selling drugs. Once a year, they go on this massive 'bike ride' to collect toys to give to poor children and hospitals. I actually hear people say. "See, look at the good they do." They have also done other good charities. But, personally I would prefer to go hungry than to be fed from the hands of this evil. Back later.........
