St. Francis de Sales Church, Benedict, MD Fr Kevin M Cusick You can look on his twitter account to see that he is the real deal before you unplug
You betcha! Not only that but I do believe according to my old Trinity Catholic Bible the fact that the Patriotic Church rejects the Popes authority and it's refusal to communicate with faithful members of the Church incurs Schism
Is this pope staying loyal to Christ? I submit that he has strayed far, far away and is proving to be loyal to a diabolical authority. In the context where this statement was made, Jesus was referring to the Pharisees asking the Jews to practise and observe the Mosaic laws, which the Pharisees themselves were not doing. In other words, Jesus was asking them to do what is actually right, and not the wrong acts that the Pharisees did. Jesus did not say that they were to submit to evil orders, just because the Pharisees who had lawful authority said so. 23 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. And this is exactly what I'm saying should be done. The pope has and is contradicting Catholic teaching and previous Magisterial teaching. How can we support his plan to abandon the underground Chinese Catholics to the Communists? They and we must resist.
I have no issue with obeying the pope when he is being faithful to Christ and the Church's teachings. But I am saying that he has been and is continuing to demand that we obey his heretical commands. So true.
To paraphrase The Bard: "Something is rotten in the State of Vatican" "Papal advisor retweets call for Church to shut down EWTN unless they fire Raymond Arroyo" https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...r-pope-to-shut-down-ewtn-unless-they-fire-ray GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
Well that would be the tactics of this Vatican under Pope Francis. Stifle all truth sayers and control the message from within.
CD, Wow, things are getting worse by the second. Well, I will be praying for EWTN in general and Raymond Arroyo, Father Murray and Robert Royal specifically.
As to the question of illicit but valid bishops of the Patriotic church in China, how do we know that these bishops are valid? Do they even believe in Christ? Did they receive the laying on of hands by true successors of the apostles? Aren't they mere puppets of the Communist government? This reminds me of the communist infiltration of the church in the West as outlined by Bella Dodd. @Dolours, I would like to know more about this. Meanwhile here is part of an article written in 2009 in asianews : Cardinal Zen said that some members of the Chinese Church are praising compromises and ambiguity. “Some people, talking to the brothers in the underground community, seem to be saying: ‘We are very smart to accept a compromise! We are in communion with the Holy Father and [at the same time] are recognised by the government. They give us money and we take care of our faithful. You instead prefer to go to prison; you would rather die [than compromise]. And then what of your faithful; abandoned, with no one taking care of them’. “ “So [for you], martyrdom has become a stupid thing?” the cardinal asked. “That’s absurd; a short-sighted view! Reaching compromises might make sense as a short-term strategy but it cannot last forever. Being secretly united with the Holy Father and at the same time affiliated with a Church that declares itself autonomous [from the Holy See] is a contradiction.” Finally Cardinal Zen ends with a brotherly note: “Dear brother bishops and priests, look at the example of Saint Stephen and all the martyrs of our history? . . . Remember that suffering for the sake of the faith is the basis of victory even if right now it might appear as [the cause of] defeat.” http://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-...ing-with-the-Patriotic-Association-14381.html
We are talking about the communist regime in China. Their actions do not have to be logical or in accordance with what our faith teaches. Can an adult who doesn't believe in Christ be baptised?
I just assumed your post was in response to me since you posted it as a response to me. Yes you are probably over-strained and exhausted Brian. Unplug a bit and regroup. We will pray for both of you.
Time to throw this one in again: St Theresa of Avila “Let nothing disturb you Let nothing affright you All things are passing Alone God sufficeth” “My grace is sufficient unto thee” “I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me” Sometimes we need to simmer down, sit tight, pray, and the answers will come Sometimes we need to wait on the Lord The answers will be there in the fullness of time He will not leave us orphans
We will just go round and round on all of this SG. I posted a very detailed response to your many questions citing historical precedence and Church law and it had no effect. So for now we can just agree to disagree. I am not arguing that communism is good or any such thing. I laid out in detail why it is within the Pope's right to sign diplomatic paperwork with another government. That's all. Do I think it's a bad deal? YES If I were Pope would I have made this deal? NO Does the Pope have the right to make this agreement? YES Does any Catholic in the world have the right to go into schism because they have a bishop without faith or a bad bishop? Absolutely NOT. If the laity had the right to go into schism because they disagree with political moves the Pope makes, even horrendous ones or if they felt they had a bad bishop, an apostate bishop, or a heretical bishop then the Church would have fallen to pieces long ago. I cannot stress enough we do not have that right. It is Protestant thinking to the core. It is precisely the Church's ability to hold together during the bad times that makes us different from all of the other fractured Christian churches whose believers jump ship as soon as they disagree with their leadership.
My understanding of what you first said in the (latter) post above is that the underground Church in China should just submit to the pope's plan/order and thus avoid schism. Am I mistaken?
Submitting to the Pope and liking what he's doing or thinking it is a good decision are two different things. Yes the underground Church in China is placed in a horribly awkward position, but they must submit to the authority appointed over them by Rome and not go into schism. Which by the way is exactly what they are doing as Catholics. They know separating from Rome is no solution. Please understand what I am saying though. That does NOT mean they must submit to any changes in Catholic teaching. Only to accept that the local bishop is now their bishop. If the local bishop tells them to have an abortion or any such non-Catholic thing they must resist.
@Dolours, I would like to know more about this.[/QUOTE] I don't have any more information about it. I read it somewhere but can't find the article now. Perhaps it referred to the start of the Patriotic Association when the Chinese Government appointed the Bishops. Or it could have been a misreading of this sentence in Pope Benedict's letter of 2007 to Chinese Catholics: "In recent years, for various reasons, you, my Brother Bishops, have encountered difficulties, since persons who are not "ordained", and sometimes not even baptized, control and take decisions concerning important ecclesial questions, including the appointment of Bishops, in the name of various State agencies". I understand that to be a reference to Chinese government officials rather than their puppet bishops. According to Wikipedia, most of the Bishops of the Patriotic Church submitted a request to the Vatican for their status to be recognised by the Church. They did so under some kind of outreach from the Vatican under the papacy of either John Paul or Benedict. Most of them, therefore, have had their status as Bishops legitimised by the Vatican. Anyway, AsiaNews has published a response by an underground Catholic to the statement by the Bishop published in Vatican Insider and quoted by David earlier in this thread. Here's the response: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Unde...gue-between-China-and-the-Holy-See-43141.html I'm sure it won't be long before some Jesuits are calling for changes in AsiaNews. If the knives are out for a well known and well supported Catholic TV channel like EWTN, Fr. Spadaro and his mates could destroy AsiaNews without breaking a sweat. From AsiaNews: 02/19/2018, 11.39 CHINA-VATICAN Underground Catholic: We are excluded from dialogue between China and the Holy See John Catholics of the unofficial Church complain that the "imminent" agreement between Rome and Beijing on the appointment of bishops forgets all the persecutions that the Christian communities are subject to. A criticism also to Msgr. Giuseppe Wei Jingyi, who - according to the author - is "underground” in name but not in nature. The repentant bishops show "repentance" only in private, but continue government policy in public. Beijing (AsiaNews) - The news of an "imminent" agreement between China and the Holy See on how to appoint bishops is arousing tensions, debates and the taking of positions among the official and unofficial Chinese Catholics (underground). Above all, the campaign in favor of signing the agreement that some media have undertaken to convince the world the benefits of a deal and perhaps even to convince China, which so far has not expressed itself, is being targeted. Several speeches criticize the fact that this campaign has silenced the voice of the unofficial Church. The following article, received from AsiaNews, is from an underground Catholic of China, known to us, who signs with the pseudonym "John". "Beware of false prohpets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them, Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them" (Matthew 7, 15-19). Before starting, I wanted to mention this biblical passage to remember what is happening or is about to happen. We know nothing, but it seems in a single evening, the mass media are transforming or are making "a package" of the underground Church [that is they are packaging an image to be used - ed.]. Reading the article “China, the “underground” bishop: we will follow the Pope, because we trust the Lord", I would like to thank the author because he put quotation marks on "underground" to describe this Chinese bishop of Qiqihar [this is Msgr. Giuseppe Wei Jingyi, interviewed by Vatican Insider, on February 16th last]. All this is really ridiculous: this so-called underground bishop is actually an official bishop who wants to represent the underground Church and claims to be an authoritative voice. The bishop asks his friends in Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan to “set aside the pretense” to speak in his place. If this is true, I would like to ask: who should represent the voice of the underground Church? Whose voice should that be? Based on what? What is the core of our Catholic faith? Who can represent the interest of the Chinese faithful? This " underground" bishop, " on my own behalf and on behalf of the community entrusted by God to my pastoral care, I want to solemnly declare: “regardless how the relations between China and the Vatican will go, we will wholly obey to the decision of the Pope and the Holy See, whatever it may be. And we will not question it either". In addition, he cites the passage of the prodigal son, "when the son repents, and asks to return to his father, may there be any reason for the father to refuse forgiveness? On the contrary, the father had been waiting a long time for his return". It seems that all the bishops of the Patriotic Church are already repentant, but is such "repentance" public or private? If they continue to make non-transparent and non-public choices, but only private and hidden, then how can we believe that this repentance is truly faithful? The bishop of Qiqihar uses the passage of the adulterous woman, but the Lord also tells us that the condition of forgiveness is not to sin anymore. Instead, the bishops of the Patriotic Church still work in the Patriotic Association and how can they be justified? Regarding the agreement between China and the Holy See, the bishop goes on to say that " You must always trust each other a little bit to reach an agreement. If there were not some mutual trust, there would not even be a chance to speak, and there would never be any agreement". I would like to know where this trust comes from? The new regulations on religions in China are well known (entered into force on February 1, 2018): it turns out from different sources that so many clandestine churches are banned and sanctioned. There are diverse examples of the lack of religious freedom in China: the case of Father Peter Wei Heping, a good and faithful priest, who died in mysterious circumstances that were officially decreed as suicide; the campaign against crosses in Zhejiang in 2015 and the demolition of churches in many other regions; the disappearance [in the hands of the police] of the bishop James Su Zhimin, whose whereabouts is still unknown. We would like to know what happens in the Vatican. Do Card. Parolin and the other "optimists" want to put all the Chinese faithful in a large cage? Perhaps they need a bigger cage, because the current one is too small to contain 12 million faithful. This agreement between China and the Vatican was born in secrecy and no priest or faithful has been directly or indirectly involved. So, how can we believe that this agreement is favorable to the Chinese Catholic Church?
A priest on the Sensus Fidelium youtube channel disagrees with you. In Our Lady of Revelation Part 9, he says that we should be praying for a schism so that people know that a true Catholic Church exists. Perhaps a schism is better than following a pope who puts atheistic communists in authority over Catholics, who implicitly approves communion for the divorced and remarried, who denies well documented sexual abuse committed by a priest who he later promotes to bishop --- you know, that kind of crap.
I love the priests on Sensus Fidelium, but I would honestly have to say that praying for a schism is ridiculous nonsense. If we are going to be praying for anything we should be praying the Pope sees his errors and has a miraculous conversion. I honestly don't think God would hear a prayer for schism. He is eternal. He created One Church. He does not wish 2 churches or 10 churches or 30,000 churches like the Protestants have. I understand your upset. I am as upset as you are believe me. I am physically sick with what is going on in the Church. If you wish to leave the Church that is your choice. As Catholics though we should be praying for conversion. Not separation.
