If you can interpret that meaning out of what the Pope said, wouldn't it be fairer to say that you hope that's what the Pope meant because there's nothing in what he actually said to support your assertion. As to how his words will be interpreted throughout the universal Church going forward, that will most likely depend on what individual bishops want it to mean. Location, location, location. First adultery and now fornication. It is so disheartening to see Catholics willing and almost eager to shelve established Church teaching for the sake of fitting in with the prevailing secular culture. To do so under the guise of God's mercy or inspiration from the Holy Spirit is scandalous. I need to take a break from this forum at least for a while because it's too easy to get sucked into threads like this. I wish you a Happy Easter.
I hope that the Holy Father is indicating that graces are available to all people of good will and that by accepting and cooperating with His graces people accept Jesus and His Holy Catholic Church; As Mother Theresa says Jesus and His church is the answer to all our needs. [I'll find the exact quote tomorrow, hopefully] Sometimes its hard to see where Our Holy Father is exhorting us in that direction and I believe this is why so many have so many questions! Including myself!
Marie-Lou, you mentioned that some baptized Catholics get married in the Church with the attitude that if it doesn't work out, we can get a divorce. That to me would not equal a valid Sacramental marriage. In fact, if I am not mistaken, that attitude, decision, and mindset is one of the conditions for an annulment, that is to say, that a valid Sacramental marriage never existed due to one or both parties having the mental reservation that they could divorce if things got rocky.
Let's knock off the half-truths in trying to interpret what Pope Francis has said. Jesus never came close to saying such nonsense. He addressed adultery and fornication head on and made clear those who practiced this deadly sin will never enter the kingdom of heaven. His mercy was in essence telling them God's truth. No watering it down, no pretense that giving half truths was anything but a lie itself. Did Jesus have compassion on those in grave sin? Yes, and he always showed this by telling them the fullness of God's divine truth. Is this what Pope Francis and his followers are doing? Nope, they are trying to indicated they are in sanctifying grace, for one reason or another even while living contrary lives to the 10 commandments. This is called false mercy. Now that being said, it is truth they receive actual grace from God as all humans alive do, but that is not sanctifying grace, which we need within our soul in order to lead a life pleasing to God and getting to heaven when we die.
If you are in sin, can you receive Gods grace? If you are in sin, can you accept Gods grace? You cannot receive the Sacramental Grace of Marriage which is the bonding of two souls into one. Sacramental Grace is a sanctifying Grace given to couples to unite their souls into one... so they can allow the Holy Spirit to work through them. And on this earth mystically unite with God. That is why the Sacrament of Marriage is so important and both souls need the education, the will and the acceptance for it to be valid in the eyes of the church. Living in sin is never acceptable but many people are currently in that situation. Our Holy Father is stating that even though you are living in sin the grace of God can lead you to the Sanctifying grace of Sacramental Marriage. At this moment in time... it's not the age of fire and brimstone. That will come soon enough. It worked generations ago when the world was less educated. It is the time of Mercy. Never to say you are free from sin... do as you want. But instead saying we are all sinners and God is calling us back to His Sanctifying Grace. May Gods Will be Done Note: The issue with fire and brimstone is that it would need to be a saint in the lines of Padre Pio or Mother Theresa. And I'm not sure they would preach that sermon. Not sure any real Saint would have the guts or authority to condemn the world. Leave that to the final two prophets. But when they do come...the end has arrived.
In the first place, Pope Francis mentioned cohabitating couples i.e. living together before entering into a civil wedding: "He said that in Argentina’s northeast countryside, couples have a child and live together. They have a civil wedding when the child goes to school, and when they become grandparents they “get married religiously"." I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” CCC 2003 There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. Thus, it is clearly wrong to say that the grace of a real marriage can be given to cohabitating couples or to those who underwent a civil wedding. Here, as Dolours has said, you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching. That good can come out of mortal sin.
CCC 2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity." All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Yes I agree and if I am not mistaken and memory serves me correct was that very not raised on this forum. It may have been in regard to the communion issue. Was the marriage ever valid in the first place? That's why I said it was no more than a civil ceremony with that attitude and understanding sadly
There is millions of graces that we accept or deny everyday. Is there only one type of grace in marriage. Or are there thousands of different types of graces that deal with marriage. By the way SGCatholic I'm glad your perfect ccc213
I really don't understand why you deliberately try to twist Pope Francis' words to mean what you would like to think he said. Once again, the fact is that he said: ““I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” The grace of a real marriage refers to that proper to the sacrament of marriage. Again, CCC 2003 as I quoted earlier.
Liberals confuse almost everything the Church teaches, as it pertains to morals. Whether they do this because they like confusion or whether it makes them feel popular with their friends, who knows? What is true is that we receive actual grace from God all the time, whether in the state of grave sin or sanctifying grace. A person can reject or correspond with God's actual grace, but until one repents from grave sin (adultery, fornication, sodomy etc....) they will not live in God's sanctifying grace, which is necessary within the soul in order to reach heaven. For instance, a parent can teach their children all the truths of the faith and this is the parents cooperating with God's actual grace. The child may or may not take the parents advice and may decide to fornicate, masturbate or practice sodomy. In doing so they reject God's actual grace and if they die without repenting from it they will go to hell. Co-habitation (fornication) could never be an 'actual grace' because it is gravely contrary to God's love and truth. The Pope and the liberals on MOG think differently. Following comes definitions of grace from Father John Hardon's Catholic Dictionary. Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. ACTUAL GRACE. Temporary supernatural intervention by God to enlighten the mind or strengthen the will to perform supernatural actions that lead to heaven. Actual grace is therefore a transient divine assistance to enable man to obtain, retain, or grow in supernatural grace and the life of God SANCTIFYING GRACE. The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being's natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifying grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zoē (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share.
It's okay Marie-Lou, I am sorry I had a long harrowing couple of days and from your post it looked like you were making a personal attack against me because I disagreed with you. Of course God is soooooooo loving towards all of us. He has so much mercy that we cannot even fathom it. He will give us many, many chances and will never stop trying to save us until our "test" is done and we expire at which point whatever decisions we have made will be final. I think the difficulty here is that God is perfect mercy and perfect Justice. It is very hard for us as humans to reconcile that. Generally people lean one way or the other and have an unbalanced view of Him. Some people think He is so merciful that almost no one can go to Hell and some people believe that He is so just that almost no one can escape it. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. That being said, going back to the discussion we were having, yes the Church should accompany couples in "irregular situations" with tender care. Whether they be the divorced and remarried, homosexuals, people cohabiting out of wedlock, etc. They should not be shunned...ever. Christ would not tell them to keep away because they were "unclean" with sin. He would however not sugar coat the truth either. He would tell them He loves them as if they were the only person He ever created, but they must cease their sinning or they will be damned. True love is warning those in danger of the peril they face. Now naturally this is a process and has to be done gently. When one of these people walks in the Church door they shouldn't be beaten over the head with their sin. They must be accompanied gently, but firmly. The trouble is that much of what is going on in the Church today leans too far to the merciful side and ignores God's justice and laws. What we know from the Bible, the Saints and apparitions or Our Lady is that a vast number of people will go to Hell. Many Saints even say the majority do. Marie-Lou I don't like that. Not one bit. I wish it weren't so, but I cannot ignore these sources. There is a reason that when Our Lady appeared at Fatima the first thing She showed the children was a vision of Hell. People today have lost their fear of Hell and even the acknowledgement that it exists. The issue of how to deal with the cohabiting/adulterous "couples", homosexuals etc. is a difficult one. You are right it should be done with the most mercy possible, but not at the expense of the truth or in violation of God's laws. I think that is the main point people are debating here. How to do this most difficult task without marginalizing the Truth of the Church. It is a difficult tightrope to walk. Hope you and baby Francis are doing well
NICE QUOTE, BUT HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE POPE SAY THAT FORNICATION, MASTURBATION, SODOMY OR ADULTERY ARE MORAL SINS? Scripture throughout clearly do!!!!
Oh Praetorian thank you for the lovely email and again I apologise for how my post sounded. I really didn't mean to question your faith. Perhaps I should refrain from posting when up with the baby weary eyed in the middle of the night! I agree so much with what you have written here Praetorian. It is such a difficult tightrope. And yes I think people have lost their fear of hell. They say it is the devil's greatest achievement fooling people into the belief he does not exist. It is all very worrying and frightening and I really hope that all of us find ourselves on the right path.
It's okay Marie-Lou. No worries Sorry you were up all night with the baby. Remember to offer it up! You can save souls while taking care of your little one! I was writing when I was up late as well so we can split the blame 50-50
