May I try to answer this one SgCatholic? Maybe Pope Francis was saying that ‘fidelity being a grace'; remains a grace and is still a grace even in a mere contractual marriage? Because Fidelity not only shows proof of commitment but fidelity in a loving relationship is undeniably good and so we must consider that God still has His foot in the door so to speak. As God is the origin of all goodness and goodness cannot endure without grace. . In such circumstances where there is a loving, committed, conjugal but secular relationship they have in this grace of fidelity [and in this sense only] the grace of a real marriage but still not the grace of the ideal of sacramental Catholic marriage. So possibly the grace of fidelity in non sacramental marriages silently provides a space for God to enter and invites Him in!
No good can come from sin. Period. Sin causes rot in the soul and makes it resistant to Grace. "Fidelity" to remain in a sinful union would not be a Grace, it would be a curse. For a couple to remain in a long term state of mortal sin would just continue to make the couple resistant to the attempts by God to deliver Grace to them. Sin blunts a person's sense of right and wrong. The more mortal sins a person commits, the more they lose their bearing on what is right and wrong. Commit enough mortal sins and you can lose your faith entirely. It would be a Grace if God gave the couple the strength to leave the union or become chaste until marriage. To state that God would give a couple the Grace to continue in a state of perpetual mortal sin is against His nature. It is saying He would will mortal sin. This seems blasphemous to me. I know you did not mean anything bad by your comment Josephite , but perhaps unwittingly, you are misrepresenting the nature of Grace in your statement.
How then Praetorian can you explain how some of these couples who have been in long term faithful relationships eventually do Receive the sacrament of marriage in the Church? My goodness if as you say , they will lose their faith entirely and seem to imply there is no hope for them then I wonder do you have so little faith that the Holy Spirit can work in all of us, sinners included, and guide us on the right path to Our Lord Jesus Christ? I myself think that God is more powerful than that, he doesn't give up on us, his foot as Josephite puts it 'is in the door so to speak' and he is full of love and mercy.
Mary Lou please don't misrepresent what I said. I never said that if a couple live together before marriage that they will lose their faith and there is no hope for them. I never said that. What I did say is that mortal sin blunts our ability to respond to Grace and we can lose our faith by persisting in mortal sin and resisting God's grace by doing so. That is just a fact. Of course Grace is available to all. God is loving and never gives up on anyone. God didn't even give up on Judas. Please don't paint me as a hater. I am very generous here on the forum and try to be charitable to all. What I have told you though is the Church teaching on Grace, it is not my opinion. And why do you question my faith in the Holy Spirit for telling you what the Church teaches? That doesn't seem very nice at all. I never question anyone's faith. I was very nice to you when I wrote you the other day. Why would you attack my faith like that? I would be interested to see how many of these couples who lived together conjugally before getting married in the Church went on to get divorced. Just because some couples who live together before marriage get married doesn't prove anything. Isn't it interesting how the skyrocketing of divorce just happened to coincide with people "shacking up" before they got married? The more prevalent living together has gotten the higher the divorce rates climbed.
I should clarify that I don't believe Pope Francis is advocating in any way cohabitation. He is simply pointing out some of these couples are totally committed and faithful to one another (and I am sure more faithful in many cases than Some who took their vows in a chapel) and by reaching out to them making them feel welcome and loved in the church, they may come to want to receive the sacrament of marriage. I don't think it would do any good to make anyone feel excluded. I love the fact that our Blessed Father is reaching out to everyone. If people feel welcome and loved surely they are more likely to want to live the way God wants us to? If I felt that God did not want to be bothered with me because of my sins and I have many, then I would just give up. There would be no point. But I know he is good and he is merciful and he never gives up on any of us. So even though I fail everyday I keep trying. This is my perspective on Pope Francis' take on things. I know many of you don't agree and as I say that is fine. It is a forum where we can debate, but I rather like my view, it gives me a sense of hope and contentment that all of us, each with our own very different faults are open to gods mercy and that the Holy Spirit works in all of us
Oh Praetorian, please don't think I am attacking your faith. I did not mean that at all but can see why you thought i did. I believe everyone on this forum has so much faith or why else would they even find themselves here. I mean, if I can word it properly, do you not believe that the Holy Spirit may still work with these couples guiding them towards the sacrament. They are faithful loving couples who may have been together for many years. If they are made feel welcome and as part of the church family, I think that they will come to want what God wants for us and that is the sacrament of marriage. These couples are living like they would do had they been married In the church, and I mean by that the faithful nature of their relationship, 100% committed to their partner, monogamous and not being promiscuous, I am sure the Holy Spirit can guide them on the right road. I agree it is very sad the divorce rate and I think there is a point too that some Catholics get married in church and don't seem to understand the sacrament they are receiving. There are many who get married in the church as both are baptised catholic but not practicing and dare I say it have the attitude if it doesn't work out well sure we can divorce. They may as well with that attitude, just have a civil ceremony.
Please stop misrepresenting Church teaching. No grace comes from sin. Not from sin committed individually and not from sin committed in partnership with another person. Fidelity to a partner in sin is fidelity to sin. Why do you think Our Lady told the children of Fatima that many souls go to hell because nobody prays for them if they can get grace from sin? There would be no need for anyone to pray for them if that were the case. We pray for sinners in the hope and firm belief that God will answer our prayer and bless sinners with the grace needed to turn away from sin. The couples' parents, siblings or friends could be praying for them. Strangers could be praying for them. Your Fatima prayers during the Rosary could have gained from God the grace they needed to turn away from sin. The one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that their sin was not rewarded with God's grace.
I agree with you Dolours that people are praying for them but I still think we should reach out to them. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that gets people back on the right course. Our prayers and reaching out can only help.
Praetorian, the fidelity I was speaking of,....... is the fidelity of the couple in the secular contractual Marriage, not the fidelity to sin or a fidelity to remain in a sinful union. Fidelity on part of the couple to each other, is a God given grace, and hopefully this fidelity would lead them to live chastely when, by Gods Love, Mercy and calling they are drawn to see the error of ways, which would be accomplished by extra graces from God to understand the Gift that He presents to them in Sacramental Catholic marriage and the grace to seek forgiveness of their fornication, live chastely and recieve Sacramental Catholic marriage.
God (who always uses our cooperation) begins "by working so that we might will it" (St. Augustine). "We are only collaborating with God, for his mercy has gone before us. It goes before so we may be called. It follows so we may be glorified. Without him we can do nothing" (St. Augustine).
Nobody said we shouldn't reach out to them. We are called to reach out in charity to all sinners, never forgetting that we, too, are sinners. The issue isn't reaching out to them. The matter in dispute is whether sin can be rewarded with grace which, if true, would make a liar of the one who said that the wages of sin is death. We cannot restrict God on where and how He confers grace but we can be absolutely sure that grace, especially the grace of marriage does not result from a non-marriage. Now, whether the Church in the person of the Pope has decided to give to secular authorities the authority to validate a grace-giving marriage is another matter. If that's the case, the Pope needs to say so clearly but don't hold your breath waiting for any clarity from Pope Francis. Fidelity to restrict a sinful act to only one partner is not fidelity to a person but fidelity to sin with one person to the exclusion of others. I'm off out of this thread again now that it is clearly and unequivocally understood that it wasn't Praetorian who misrepresented the Holy Spirit when he/she stated Catholic teaching.
Below is my personal experience. All my children were raised in the Catholic faith. And I have witnessed 2 of my daughters live with their partners before marriage and both daughters had their first 2 children out of wedlock but both lived in faithful relationships. At the same time I also witnessed many of their friends doing the same thing [living with their partners] and many of these unions lacked fidelity. Due to Gods Grace and Mercy and following much prayer and suffering both daughters married their respective partners, [now husbands and have had more children] and praise God they are still married today even though they have both had their ups and downs in their respective marriages! Sadly many of their friends and aquaintances that lived with boyfriends having children outside of marriage, who were not faithful to their partners or visa versa, never got married and their defacto marriage relationships ended and they moved on to even more dira consequences . I have seen many young people today waste their lives by believeing the lie that recreational sex is fine even while in supposed committed relationships but these poor young people have been duped by the lies of sin. What I have witnessed is that the grace of Fidelity in a committed relationship seems to play an important role in bringing the young couples to the Sacrament of marriage.
How do you know that the grace came from a monogamous sinful relationship and not as an answer to your prayers? I have known people who lived in all the situations you describe and there was no uniform outcome, either when their relationship was monogamous before or after their civil wedding or even their Church wedding. Restricting non-marital sex to a single partner is certainly better than having sex with multiple partners but that doesn't make it good or the beneficiary of God's grace. The fact is that society has made cohabitation normal, calling evil good. Our agreeing with society that evil is good doesn't make it so. The truth will still be the truth even if nobody believes it. Now, that's absolutely my last post on this thread.
Your arguments apply to 'homosexual couples' too who are totally committed and faithful to one another. What is the difference between a cohabiting 'homosexual' and heterosexual couple?
Hi Garabandal, what I am saying is that by reaching out to everyone and praying for them, that through the Holy Spirit they will come to the point that they want to live in accordance with the church teaching. The Holy Spirit will guide them. I don't believe it is right to exclude anyone or give the impression to anyone that they are not welcome in church. We may not agree with how they live their lives but then again each of us has our own faults but we aspire to live the way Christ wants us to and by going to mass and praying hopefully the Holy Spirit will give us the strength to do so. Surely if someone is open to attending church, that can only be good can it not. I'm not saying I'm condoning their choices just that the hope is that they will respond to God's call and live a good Christian life
Grace does not come from a monogamous sinful relationship? Who every said that! Grace comes from God! Grace is Gods gift................. God (who always uses our cooperation) begins "by working so that we might will it" (St. Augustine). The apparent small grace of fidelity is just a start! and that is what I think the Pope is saying. However insignificant the grace of fidelity is, it could be likened to the insignificant grace of understanding! that the women at the well recieved from Jesus in regards to her 5 husbands. She went away more aware and graces grew, she became bold and lead others to Jesus; God got His foot in the door with a small grace.
For the umpteenth and last time: Pope Francis said that fidelity gave them the grace of marriage where no marriage existed. Grace is most certainly God's gift. None of that explains how unmarried co-habiting couples receive the grace of marriage. Marriage + grace = the grace of marriage. No marriage +/- grace cannot equal the grace of marriage. Catholic teaching is that sex outside a valid marriage is a sin against God - a breach of the 6th Commandment. Theft is a sin against God - a breach of the 5th Commandment. A thief can be faithful to a lifelong partner in crime but theft will still be a sin. His fidelity to his partner won't make the theft less sinful nor a channel of God's grace. We know for sure that prayer is rewarded with grace. Fidelity in sin being a conduit of God's grace is an innovation.
Would it be more helpful to say that Pope Francis was indicating that in some of these relationships, graces are received that are similar to those received in marriage? Because it is clear that is what the Pope is trying to indicate.
All I am saying is that God has granted the grace of fidelity to some cohabitating couples, which will hopefully lead them to the sacrament of marriage. Catholics are not married by a priest. The couple marry each other. The priest is a witness to the sacrament. The grace comes from God and God is not restricted in His generosity. I suppose that this of course could be seen as endorsing cohabitation, which I am not. Maybe I am giving too much leeway to our Holy Father in his statement but I'm trying to see where he is coming from.
