Charlie Johnston.

No.

Do you support any of these groups?

Hamas
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
The Popular Resistance Committee (PRC)
Harakat al-Sabireen

 

Got it. And you know how much I disagree with you about what God's plan is for this Pope and am really concerned about the constant attacks (concerned for your soul) but know that I do pray for you and several others here on the forum for many months now with my daily rosary (I forget some days as urgent issues always pop up but each week you're in there). We are all in this together and I could care less who is right in the end as long as we all get through the narrow door by hook or by crook, brother

God has a plan, Trust Him

 

I support none of those groups because they are killers. Killing is wrong.
Israel kills people indiscriminately (including children).
Do you support Israel, Garabandal????

 

Good - so you don't support the groups that attack Israel and kill Israeli people indiscriminately (including children).

Israel is a self-independent nation.

It is surrounded by Islamic extremists that want to annihilate it from the face of the earth.

Suicide attacks on Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Rocket attacks on Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Israel has a right to self-defence.

It does not have a right to violate international law.

There are two sides to every story.

So from now on when you mention Israel killing innocents indiscriminately please also condemn the Islamic extremists who are hell bent on destroying Israel completely and who kill innocent Israeli lives including children.

Having a balanced perspective is important.

 

jackzokay, I was referring to a thread that I created today and the hate that I sensed in your words. As for my views, I am probably best described as a Kumbaya type of person. I think that all murder is wrong unless it is in self defense. So I can't really take either side in the Middle East except to say that I hope one day we can all live peacefully together. It is very difficult for me to picture that right now but maybe it will be possible someday. I honestly can't say that I hate any particular group of people, people seem to inherit hate. We all have so much in common but yet we will always find a difference for us to try and justify murdering people.
I think of Israel as a nation which contains the holiest ground found anywhere on this earth, I don't think of it as a people. It is the birth place of our lord and the birth place of several religions, ours' included. People of all religions live in Israel, of course, the majority are Jewish. But I truly meant what I said, that I think that you should ask Charlie what he meant by that. I also wonder though if Israel wasn't mainly Jewish would any of the historic Christian places be standing there today?

PS - My Mom is from Falls Road in Belfast and my Uncle was killed with a plastic bullet in 1980. The Catholics burned my grandparents house down because they thought protestants lived in it. So tell me I'm wrong about hate.

 

Yes. I agree with all of the above.

But Charlie's avatar didn't say; I stand with the Palestinians!

It said he "stands with Israel"!

In case you didn't get it: killing is wrong. I'm not defending killing.
But you certainly seem to be!! Why is that????????!?

 

Why would I tell you you're wrong about hate? Hatred and killing is wrong.
It doesn't matter if it's done by Jews, Arabs, Catholics or Protestants.
But Charlie didn't say "I stand by the Palestinians" now did he?

PS. I don't know why you detected hatred in my message. Is that because I took issue with the killing of innocent Palestinians and a holy man standing by those doing the killing? That's not hatred. That's logic. To accuse me of hatred and justify yourself as a pacifist, I find condescending. I mean, really....

 

But "standing with Israel" when it is under constant attack by radical Islam that wants to annihilate the country is not the same thing as saying I support all of Israel's policies.

Israel has a right to take measures to defend its people from attack within international law.

It does not have the right to violate international law so indiscriminate killing is wrong.

 

My point is that he did not say that "I Stand by the Jews" either. I am honestly not certain what his thoughts are on Israel but I doubt that he "Stands by Murder" either. I truly think that you should question him on it and you can give him your point of view.

 

I'll ask Charlie. That's easy done...
Though I think you're splitting hairs on the 'I stand by Israel' as opposed to 'I stand by the Jews' lol....Seriously Carol!? If I were to say to you 'I stand by scotland' ......would you think I was referring to those scots that only wore kilts? PULL THE OTHER ONE!!!!

 

Which is my argument entirely!
They ARE violating international law by killing and maiming Palestinians.
That is WRONG!!! Why would a holy man support murder! I don't get it!!?!

 

W

Someone posted this earlier in the thread...
Thanks for your quick responce and insight. I respect your thoughts and position. I don't disagree with your opinion on Islam. There are radicals from all religions too though including Jews and Christians. I do disagree that the Israeli political leaders and military are NOT following the commandments of God at all. (i'm not talking about jewish people in general and I am no anti-semite, anyone that critizes Israel gets this label) Even not accepting Jesus as saviour "yet", God didn't say Thou Shall Not Kill unless someone tries to kill you then you can kill their entire village, take out a hospital and kill some kids for good measure. Satan's influence is clear in Israel too. I would relate this action to living in a house with 4 middle eastern families living on each side. All are good people just wanting to live in peace except one. This one attempts to harm you and you kill all people from the 4 houses. This is what Israel does basically and I don't support it one bit. All Islamic people are part of a murderous death cult? Are these kids of no value to God? Sorry maybe best we agree to disagree. I have tremendous respect and admiration for you, your blessed position and your effective, heaven sent writings. I didn't come here to stir trouble or get you or anyone upset. All killing is wrong. Not believing the saviour has come yet is also a deception.

 

Someone posted this earlier in the thread. You would do well to appreciate it...
I respect your thoughts and position. I don't disagree with your opinion on Islam. There are radicals from all religions too though including Jews and Christians. I do disagree that the Israeli political leaders and military are NOT following the commandments of God at all. (i'm not talking about jewish people in general and I am no anti-semite, anyone that critizes Israel gets this label) Even not accepting Jesus as saviour "yet", God didn't say Thou Shall Not Kill unless someone tries to kill you then you can kill their entire village, take out a hospital and kill some kids for good measure. Satan's influence is clear in Israel too. I would relate this action to living in a house with 4 middle eastern families living on each side. All are good people just wanting to live in peace except one. This one attempts to harm you and you kill all people from the 4 houses. This is what Israel does basically and I don't support it one bit. All Islamic people are part of a murderous death cult? Are these kids of no value to God? Sorry maybe best we agree to disagree. I have tremendous respect and admiration for you, your blessed position and your effective, heaven sent writings. I didn't come here to stir trouble or get you or anyone upset. All killing is wrong. Not believing the saviour has come yet is also a deception.

 

It is more like me saying that "I Stand by England" and someone assuming that I approved of the British Army's atrocities in Northern Ireland. It always better to have a conversation with the person who is the source, we can certainly work out these small issues.

 

Oh, and Israel is not a self-dependent nation!, having a balanced perspective is indeed important!

 

It is a complex war.

And there is also a propaganda war. Getting the truth about 'casualties' is really difficult. Not all Palestinians killed are innocent civilians, many are combatants from the HAMAS organisation.

Analysts differ greatly about how many of the Palestinian casualties were in fact civilians.These discrepancies are compounded by self-serving sources of information, biased or intimidated reportage, and the usual "fog of war." For example, it took almost two years after the last major Hamas-Israel military confrontation, in December 2008-January 2009, for Hamas interior minister Fathi Hamad to acknowledge that around half of the approximately 1,200-1,400 Palestinian fatalities in that conflict were combatants. That was completely contrary to earlier Hamas reports and international media claims. Similarly, in the wake of that conflict and Operation Defensive Shield in 2002, the initial civilian fatality counts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) were later discredited or even withdrawn, as described in a May 6, 2009, New Republic article by Simona Weinglas.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/how-many-civilians-have-been-killed-in-gaza

In the latest round of combat, Hamas information officials gave explicit instructions to call every casualty an "innocent civilian," regardless of the facts. On July 17, the Hamas Interior Ministry posted a video with the following instructions: "Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add 'innocent civilian' or 'innocent citizen' in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza" (see the Middle East Media Research Institute's Special Dispatch No. 5799). And the official Hamas television channel in Gaza, al-Aqsa TV, broadcast this remarkable proclamation on August 10: "Even the jihad fighters in the battleground are actually Palestinian civilians fulfilling their religious and national duty. This is why we...say 'a civilian car,' 'a civilian target,' and so on, since we have no regular army and no real military targets, as the occupation is trying to claim in its propaganda" (as reported by Palestinian Media Watch).

Hamas is also known to use civilians as human shields.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...hamas-could-limit-civilian-casualties-in-gaza

 

I didn't say self dependent nation but a self-independent nation.

It is a self governing independent state.

That gives it the right to self-defence against attack.

 

They are not small issues to the people on the receiving end of israeli atrocities (and similarly, the atrocities committed against Israeli people by terrorist groups). All killing is wrong Carol. There are no justifications for it.

I think, to bring your example into focus... That if an atrocity is committed - let's say, Bloody Sunday, and a prominent person comes out and says "I stand by England": it could be perceived as condoning the atrocity. It's all about timing.
And Charlie's timing is way, way off.

Your eloquence in Charlie's defence is admirable. But a truly holy man cannot support killing. He cannot "stand by" a nation that murders and maims. Isn't that called terrorism? Holy men cannot support terrorism.

And yes, as previously stated, I will take the issue up with Charlie. Though I know he visits this site, I invite him to respond.
It would be wonderful to hear his views. As well, it would be nice to hear the bishop of denvers views on the matter also. Christians cannot support murder, no matter how it is dressed. Not to speak out is akin to agreeing with it.
But to defend it, well, that's another matter entirely..

It's well known that Israeli responses to youths throwing rocks, for example, is disproportionate.
In the cases where soldiers are taken to task over their actions - cases are more often than not, dismissed. This tells me that the Israeli army as well as its government and courts system are working TOGETHER!

"I stand by Israel" has many negative connotations given these facts.

 

Amnesty: Hamas rocket attacks amounted to war crimes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32053999

Just giving this a little perspective.

Where did Hamas get the 10,000 rockets they possess I wonder?

The proportions of rockets fired in 2007 were:
34% – Palestinian Islamic Jihad
22% – Hamas
 8% – Fatah
 6% – Popular Resistance Committees
30% – unknown

What have they all in common?

Islamic terrorists.

This in no way justify's Israel's over-reaction which is frankly counter-productive since sympathy is always with civilian deaths.

But equally international condemnation should be brought to bear on Hamas.

Too often the media is silent on the role of militant Islam in the Middle East.

 

I agree. Self defence though is more often than not massively disproportionate. Israel is practically a military super power: youths get killed for throwing rocks. FOR THROWING ROCKS!!!!

Killing is wrong Garabandal. The sooner it stops the better. It cannot be justified. The Palestinians live in squalor. That is wrong. It's just so wrong. They don't have electricity in many parts of the gaza strip.
These poor people are so decimated, our holy lord cannot like this.

If it were Jews afflicted I would cry out for their freedom. If it were any race of people, same. Why is it okay to imprison an entire nation of people on a strip of desert land? There are children there....poor little children. Is it okay because the Jews look after our Christian sites of worship? Why is okay to decimate a race of people in such a way? Why, please tell me?