Insight

"In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. "A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub. St. Antoninus (†1459)

*"In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless..." Cum ex Apostolatus Officio - Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 1559

 

Jesus has given us a very clear answer to all this debate.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And there is no one living on the face of the planet earth who can dare say he is without sin.

If God forbid, there was a schism. I believe I would stay with the Pope.

We had a big panic back in the 70s when the Pius X traditionals were at their peak in a sense. We had a great parish Priest at that time. And he said to us from the pulpit. "Stay with the Pope." "If any of you feel the Latin Mass is the genuine Mass, by all means attend; but you must also attend the Holy Mass in you own parish, to keep safe within the Church".....This is the advice I will follow still with God help.

 

Thanks, LittleMe, for the information. Gotta say that it is very confusing, particularly the second paragraph even after reading it a couple of times. It doesn't say who gets to decide that the Pope is a heretic. It also reads as though nobody can declare a sitting Pope a heretic unless he said something heretical prior to his elevation to the Papacy. Or have I got the wrong endof the stick?

Please, anybody reading this, don't interpret it as an attack on Pope Francis. I'm just curious to know how the Church would deal with an heretical Pope should the situation ever arise. I think it possible that some time in the future the Church could face that kind of crisis.

 

Amen!

Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

 

I am not fearful at of Pope Francis being an apostate or heretical as you say. It is yourself an a few others that seem afraid of Pope Francis being such. My fear is that, as Mark Mallett clearly brings out in his blog, is that the 'right and far right' in the Catholic Church are perhaps not seeing what the Holy Spirit is doing through Pope Francis and they will cause the schism. I am sure we have all had our moments of "what is he saying", but I contend that Mark is right, as usual, and there is a test going on and it is the conservative/traditional faithful that are being tested at this point, so it seems.

 

Briank, You don't deserve to be on the same thread as Peter B. Peter has contributed more to this forum with his time and talent than anyone but Glenn. Intellectually and through his experiences he has saved souls. Shame on you. It speaks volumes that Padraig has not defended Peter. The forum has lost a great friend and theologian. I hear Ron Conte is looking for more people at his forum. You are not even in the same ballpark as Peter intellectually, go run with those who appreciate your shallow mind.

 

Regardless of PeterBs credentials or efforts here, he was spreading false debunked homosexualist talking points. That can never be condoned on a Catholic forum, let alone agreed with and applauded. I'm sorry you fail to see this.

 

A devastating loss for the forum. But I can't say I blame you with the direction of the forum and also how you were rudely accused a few times by a poster of posting homosexual propaganda when you were actually telling us of your real life experience. It is posts like that to fellow catholic forum members that sadden me almost as much as the topic of this thread.

Thank you for all of your posts that I have learned much from and for letting us know of apparitions to discern and read about. I always found your posts thoughtful and so well balanced. I hope to be able to find the Zaro and apparitions in the amazon messages in English somewhere on the web.

God bless and take care Peter!

 

I believe he said he was telling us about what he experienced when he worked in the arts with homosexuals. you should not belittle someone's life experience to talking points. if your life experience is different, go ahead and post it. But to dismiss someone's experience as you did is uncharitable and disrespectful.

 

I do not think pope francis is a heretic. Deeply flawed, weak, and frustratingly confusing yes, but heretic, no. This too shall pass, and the church will survive this pope. I can certainly understand people's concerns. But I also think posters here who are highly critical of the pope also seem to spend a lot of time researching negative articles about him. This is a guess on my part based on the sheer quantity of articles posted by a few people. When you spend your time doing this, you will develop a negative attitude about him as you feed it daily. Now is not the time to trust news sources or our own intellect. The Holy Spirit may very well be working in ways that are far beyond our comprehension.

I will do as I was instructed to do when I asked about this situation in prayer. That was "watch and pray". That is pretty much what I was doing anyway. I honestly don't have time to read or even look for articles on the pope. my daily duties and life's issues keep me pretty busy!!

 

Padraig,
That is very interesting insight you have shared with us! After the publication of the AL, you seemed very, very certain that something big was about to happen. That Heaven would act in some way and it would be significant. We even had a thread to try to guess what it was. I don't think anything big happened, unless I missed it which could be the case. So, my question is, was that situation different in terms of insight? I know I am not asking my question clearly, so I hope you are following me. Did you get this "insight" in the same way you got that insight? The big event you thought would happen, did you get that in prayer too?

Also, when asked how the pope was a heretic, and to give examples, you referred us to a web site, which seems pretty unfriendly to the pope. There is also an article on there that the pope may not be validly elected. I believe that article was posted here on the forum too. You state you feel the pope was validly elected. So, what parts of that website do you agree with, since I guess you don't agree with that article?

Thanks Padraig!

 

What he posted are false homosexual agenda talking points, verbatim. They have no place whatsoever on a Catholic forum, yet were regurgitated as if gospel and apparently widely imbibed because of the credibility of the author. (That's seriously dangerous). If you don't believe me, fine, but look it up on credible orthodox Catholic sources.

I've known about this subject for years. A close friend is the chief of mental health services at a big hospital here. He gets consulted on every suicide attempt that comes in the hospital. He told me about the suicide rates a long time ago, and how homosexual propaganda tries to spin this ugly underbelly of the gay lifestyle. I've read the stats and the actual causes in the medical and psychological literature.

Sorry but PeterB is simply repeating verbatim propaganda lies. I don't know why he knows the propaganda so well and regurgitates it so readily, but the Truth of the matter must be shared regardless of how much someone likes or respects PeterB.

 

I missed all these posts can someone attach a link please.

 

Here's my response, his original statement must be earlier in that thread. I waited several days to respond, to see if anyone at MOG took offense at such false homosexual agitprop being regurgitated here. Crickets.

http://motheofgod.com/threads/cardinal-marx-fr-pierre-valkering.9342/page-8#post-136041

 

Here is the text of his posting which, of course, is excellent and sound, being totally faithful to the teaching of the Church and its Catechism:

As someone who has known a large number of homosexuals (having worked in the performing arts), including a close family member (non-Christian), I fully support the Pope's remarks - as David has rightly said, he is essentially just repeating the Catechism -, though not necessarily the way in which they will be spun... Very careful discernment is called for here.

We hopefully all agree that there can never be theological acceptance for homosexual acts: that is non-negotiable and a non-issue. It should be obvious to everyone that there are indeed forces within as well as outside the Church trying to alter this, and these need to be resisted firmly and unambiguously, especially as the argumentation offered is often insidious.

However, homophobia is also a sad reality, as anyone who has taken the time to listen to the experience of those on the receiving end will know, and unfortunately Christians have not been without guilt historically in this respect. There is for example a deep tragedy in the fact that homosexuals have sometimes felt driven to suicide because of fear of condemnation from the 'Christian' community (which is a very different thing from conviction in the sense of the work of the Holy Spirit reveal our sin to us as the first step to change). The problem is that all too often the deep-seated hatred which homosexuals encounter essentially stems from a psychological aversion to difference, an aversion which can be observed in all societies (which naturally can also be directed towards Jews, gypsies, the mentally handicapped or any other identifiably different social group) and which is itself the result of our sinful human nature, even when it is given a theological veneer. Homophobia additionally often results from fear, from the inability to deal with the thought that at some point in one's life one may have had some of the same tendencies. The homosexual as object of hatred may represent something within ourselves which we cannot face. The carnage in Orlando may well have been a case of this mechanism.

To the extent that collusion with unreconstructed homophobia represents a failure on the part of Christians to live the Gospel and an anti-witness to Christ, Pope Francis is absolutely right to apologize, and it should be noted that he mentioned other groups in this context as we are dealing with a more general principle.

Yes, homosexual practice is sin, but we have a duty to engage constructively whenever possible with those homosexuals who are sincere about their search for God (and they do exist), however confused they may be and pressurized by the LGBT community into adopting a self-destructive lifestyle that is presented to them as a biological necessity. Which is a lie (I personally blame Sigmund Freud for much of the current dysfunctional thinking about human sexuality) and an insult to their dignity as human beings created in God's image and for whom Christ died. We need to exercise genuine compassion - which needs to be distinguished from legitimation - and while praying for these people's liberation from slavery to biological impulses which they have been effectively told that they must obey, accompany those of them who demonstrate genuine goodwill on their difficult and painful journey. Yes, they may fall on the way, but that is no less true of us ourselves, and we need to remember that.​

 

Ok so I am not trying to be argumentative here. But I do not think the aversion one feels is just toward something different. Anytime one is exposed to something sinful or potentially sinful, there is a yuck factor especially if that person is innocent. I remember when I first learned about how you have a baby. I was horrified. I cried for hours. I wanted to be a mother and I just couldn't see how I could ever have relations. I even told my mother I would only do it once and I would have twins. So maybe that could be considered when thinking about this aversion people feel about homosexuality. Not that they should then be abusive toward anyone but I just mean having the aversion part.

 

Peter, how will we be able to find you to still follow your English translations of foreign language material?

 

Nonsense. It's full of anti Catholic false homosexualist agitprop. Lies have no place on a Catholic forum, no matter how "good" they might make some people feel in attacking the Church.

 

Padraig,

I see you posted this at 8:42 am the morning after you got the insight. Seeing as this is such a huge statement for anyone to make online much less a leader of a Catholic forum, can I ask how did you discern before posting? Did you contact your spiritual director in the early hours, which, if he or she is worth his or her salt would need time to pray into it. Or did you go on your own bat and publish it without adequate discernment? It seems to me that you did the latter given the time frame.
Please clarify.

BC

 

Brian do you agree,

A sin is a sin.

Be it a sin of idolatory or the sin of murder.
as both sadden God and both call out to God for vengeance.

Fornication is fornication.

be that between members of the opposite sex or members of the same sex, it is the sin of fornication!

God is the only judge of the heart and therefore the only judge of the seriousnesss of each individual sins, because only God sees the soul of each person and He alone understands the intent of the soul!

You say.....no matter how "good" a person may feel when attacking the Church it has no place on a Catholic Forum.

Brian I think you believe that you are standing for God and for truth, but I say your words back to you......

" no matter how good you may feel attacking the head of the Catholic Church [Our Holy Father, Pope Francis] it has no place on a Catholic Forum!"

Do you agree?

Please consider