Insight

I'm not "blaspheming" the pope. But he IS blaspheming the sacraments of the Eucharist by forcing the issue of admitting the divorced and remarried to the Eucharist, and the sacrament of marriage, by stating that the vast majority of formal marriages are invalid, yet cohabitation (Objectively a mortal sin, one for which we've obviously lost our proper abhorrence) can be sacramental, conferring grace.

Don't you realize this is an attack on the core beliefs of Catholicism, ON THE FAMILY as Sister Lucia has said, that MUST be opposed?!?

 

Yesterday the work of the devil was palpable. It ratcheted up many fold.

I asked Our Lady what she wanted, what we could do for her. I just got an overwhelming sense of sadness, and the urgent need to pray more, especially the Rosary.

Good people just don't understand how they're being deceived and used. A false sense of obedience to the pope is being manipulated by the devil so that good people accept and explain away blatant falsehoods and errors.

It's oppressive, it's palpable, yet many good people can't (or refuse to) see it, feel it.

 

I felt it in Rome last Christmas.

 

Yes many Catholics are their own worst enemies in this regard and strangely put up further stumbling blocks to separated Christians in Coming into the fold. Newman railed in the 19th century against the erroneous belief amongst some catholics that every word and gesture of the Pontiff was beyond reproach. This is a deadly and scandalous error. From day one I found the new papacy unsettling. Yes of course Pope Benedict was much beloved by me, yes of course there was the unease created by the lightning strike on st Peter's etc. All of this coupled with the factthat Pope Francis has done nothing but leave me bewildered has made me suspect of him for 3 years. Is he the validly elected Pope yes I believe so. Does this make him Christ's specially chosen Holy Pope in no way. Does this make him the "Pope of the storm" yes if we mean that he will be very much instrumental in bringing on said storm if he continues in his errors.

 

I realsied this long before Poep Francis was elceted. I used to see pictures of the late Cardinal Martini and they used to fill me with a real sense of dread. But then he died and they settled on Francis.

I was also filled with dread when Pope Benedict resigned, I knew then that something was very wrong.

 

Pope Francis is an avid student of the late Cardinal Martini. At the 2005 conclave, when the progressives realized Martini was too old to be elected, they coalesced around Cardinal Bergoglio. He came in second to Pope BXVI.

In 2013 the progressives were wildly successful in getting their candidate to the top of the conclave. Which was how Pope Francis won this time.

 

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Discuss? What do you understand by Jesus' statement? What does the Magisterium teach about this statement? This is a genuine question.

I'm no bible scholar but I keep hearing context is everything so I will find the entire chapter and paste below.

If there is a schism coming - with both sides believing themselves doing as Christ would want - how does each side apply the above statement to their decision?

(Douay Rheims)

And there came to him the Pharisees and Sadducees tempting: and they asked him to shew them a sign from heaven. [2] But he answered and said to them: When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather, for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning: Today there will be a storm, for the sky is red and lowering. You know then how to discern the face of the sky: and can you not know the signs of the times? [4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. And he left them, and went away. [5]And when his disciples were come over the water, they had forgotten to take bread.

[6] Who said to them: Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. [7]But they thought within themselves, saying: Because we have taken no bread. [8] And Jesus knowing it, said: Why do you think within yourselves, O ye of little faith, for that you have no bread? [9] Do you not yet understand, neither do you remember the five loaves among five thousand men, and how many baskets you took up? [10] Nor the seven loaves among four thousand men, and how many baskets you took up?

[11] Why do you not understand that it was not concerning the bread I said to you: Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees? [12] Then they understood that he said not that they should beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees. [13]And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? [14] But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

[21] From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. [22] And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee. [23] Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men. [24] Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

[26] For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. [28]Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Having read the above, if there is a schism coming in the Church I honestly don't think that the side that breaks away from the Pope and Rome could be at rights with God, even if the Pope was an outright heretic. How that would pan out in everyday practice I just don't know, e.g. if we were expected to go against anything taught by the Scriptures and sacred Tradition. That would leave us in quite a serious dilemma.

 

Pope Francis seems to be extending the doors of mercy as much as possible and making the Church more accessible. He said shortly after becoming Pope "we have to find a new balance; otherwise the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”

 

I don't believe that there will be a schism because the Bishops opposing the reversal of Church teaching on marriage have never made any threatening statements about the Pope's supremacy. The same can't be said about the likes of Cardinal Kasper.

Any schism is likely to come if the next Pope doubles down on the Doctrine and doesn't get in line with the Northern European (and supposedly Argentinian) version of collegiality.

 

Padraig, if things happen as you say, if there is a schism and a group of cardinals breaks away from the Pope, will you follow them? Will you break away and join a group that doesn't have a validly elected Pope? Because it seems to me that that is what you are saying you will do. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Whatever the future holds, the Church belongs to Christ and ultimately it will be God who leads us through all this. I do recall that when the new Pope was announced I had a strange feeling, of being underwhelmed.... and at the same time a most powerful sense that God wanted me to pray for the Pope. In a way, it's above our pay grade as laypeople to discuss what goes on in Rome. Even if we were to be asked from the highest level in the church to accept a change in doctrine, we can invoke our consciences... I know this has been abused in the past, by liberals who want to disregard the teaching on contraception etc, but a well-formed conscience is a different matter. We can't go into schism even if doctrinally sound churchmen are leading this. We have to hold fast to Peter - not an individual pope but the Church founded on the rock.

I greatly respect Padraig and won't be leaving this forum. He is acting in good faith, right or wrong. I sense that he's been having a difficult time lately and perhaps feeling depressed. No wonder, seeing the signs of the times! I note also that Padraig leads a rather solitary life, like the hermits of old (but in a different way!). However the desert fathers were concerned about the difficulties of this life. I don't know Padraig personally and am loth to make suggestions to someone who might well tell me to mind my own b, but I would say that a good spiritual director is essential for anyone who has a remotely mystical life. I have a young relative who has had some mystical experiences and she did find a good and experienced director. It's very difficult to find someone wise enough to discern a soul which is already advanced in the spiritual and mystical life. Charlie Johnston has three priests he refers to - a very wise decision.

God bless and keep Padraig and all on this forum. May the Precious Blood of Christ (in whose month we are right now) cleanse us and bind us closely to the Will of God.
_____

I had a sudden thought - the Church has been here before.... during the Arian crisis, we actually had popes who were arians themselves and thus heretics. And the Church survived!
http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2008_04APR/2008AprArePopesImmune.cfm

 

Thank God for Mark Mallet's latest blog http://www.markmallett.com/blog/that-pope-francis-part-ii/. The the temptation is surely to question our Holy Father and conclude as a few on this forum, including Padraig, have done and claim Pope Francis a heretic. My heart and my prayerful reflection on this all important confusion tells me Mark is spot on. It is the only thing that makes sense. No current alleged prophecy comes close to saying what others are now calling Pope Francis. The one thing we all have in common is the pursuit of unchanging teachings form Christ through his Church. Some feel that indeed Christ is asleep in the hull of the boat. Where is our trust in Him? Where is our faith that he will not abandon the ship? Where is love for Christ's Vicar on earth when the waves of fear and confusion set in? I believe this is the beginning of the confusion and the waves of fear coming our way. I can't explain what Holy Father is saying 'off the cuff". I do however see it intrinsically connected to the Year of Mercy. It is not a time for 'knee jerking', but trust in the Lord that He is still the general of His ship. It is a time of walking by faith and not by sight. Padraig, I pray that you read and ponder Mark's blog. You are a man we need to remain calm, lest the Mother of God forum no longer be blessed.

 

I will briefly mention the fact that at no point has Padraig said that Francis is not the validly elected Pope. This however does not mean that this Pope is a good or great Pope. There have been many, very many validly elected Pope's who have been much worse than Francis. The difference in this age we live is the means of instant mass communication at our disposal. Ireally don't think we have a proper appreciation or understanding of the rapid changes these have brought to our personal and social existence. Many are still like rabbits got in the headlights.

 

I remember hearing a video from Malachi Martin where he said the Church has been actually in an ongoing "liquidation" process for decades, to be restored as something we would hardly recognise, but closer to the people and Christ. Who are we to say that its current direction isn't the direction the Church is supposed to be taking, but is being shaken up first?

 

I will Croos that bridge when I come to it.

 

The Pope is indeed is validly elected.

 

Although I do so with a heavy heart, given that the stance I have taken publicly in my book No False Prophet no longer appears compatible with the line taken by this forum, I will no longer be contributing to MOG for the foreseeable future unless something radical changes. I cannot possibly endorse the present stance regarding Pope Francis, I'm very sorry to say. My English translations of foreign-language material will for the moment be sent elsewhere.

It is my firm conviction that those who are labelling the Pope a heretic have fallen into serious error which has largely been brought about by giving undue credence to a handful of agenda-driven websites interpreting Papal statements in the least charitable light possible. Sites which loudly proclaim their orthodoxy but which I am convinced are actually subtly but deeply corrosive of authentic Christian faith.

In addition, given the role that private revelation has played in all of this, it is especially sad that the messages of Church-approved visionaries (Edson Glauber of Itapiranga and Gladys Quiroga of San Nicolas) which clearly imply Heavenly endorsement of Francis's Papacy have been ignored by the Pope's detractors.

With prayers and blessings in Christ,

Peter

 

This is getting tiresome. No one is saying that Christ is no longer in charge etc blah blah blah. What we are saying is that this Pope is not particularly great and that he has expressed heterodox belief on a number of occasions. There have been many heretic Pope's in the past and I dare say apostate Pope's so why are people so fearful of this being the case again. Even if he is in actual fact a heretic I believe he was validly elected and is therefore the Pope and therefore will never formally teach heresy as the supreme Pontiff. This is a position I would put my life on. This however does not mean that he is not a heretic and has not caused mayhem in the Church.

People keep harping on about the year of Mercy. He is not bringing people back into the Church. He is alienating faithful Catholics and confirming sinners, heretics and apostates in their sins.

 

Yes. The Pope is validly elected and we must respect him and pray for him. People here talk as though a schism means some Luther type figure in the hierarchy with the support of a few fellow Bishops declaring that he is going his own way, doesn't believe that Pope Francis has the authority to discipline him and calls on Catholics to follow him. If it were that simple, the choice for me would be a very easy one to stay with the Pope and pray for the schismatic bishops.

Here's a question for those of you who are better informed than me: Has there ever been a case where a majority of Cardinals or Bishops have voted to remove a validly elected Pope on grounds that he was a heretic or preached heresy? Would they have the right to do so? I believe that's the kind of schism Padraig fears. It is the kind of schism that fills me with dread because then I would feel obliged to side with the bishops whose teachings are consistent with what the Church has always taught but what if that left us with two Popes? We must pray that we are never presented with such a scenario because many of us wouldn't know what to do. We could end up living in areas where we don't even have a priest who chose the same side.

I really think it would be better if this thread were closed or suspended so we all could take time out for prayer and reflection, but at the same time I would like to have my questions answered.