The controversy of the gift of tongues

I would like to have this discussion. I have not been given the gift of tongues, but I do know many good and holy people and priests who have the gift. I DONT want to get into a fight whether the charismatic renewal is good or not. THAT is not the discussion. I have a dear friend and priest who is an excellent apostolic preacher and incredibly intelligent and highly regarded. That is obvious by his blog. I sent him Mark Mallett's latest blog regarding the gift of tongues. He answered it back with many rebuttals. I passed the rebuttals onto Mark. Mark made a correction and answered his rebuttal. I am increasingly interested in this. I found Mark's information and research incredibly in depth and well done. I found Fr. 's rebuttal interesting too.

I have my own experience with Brother stanley Villivicencio who had the gift of tongues and was a man who gave his testimony to divine mercy all over the world over 5500 times. He spoke in his native language from Cebu wherever he went, China, Thailand, the U.S etc. He spoke in the Basilica of the Immaculate conception in Washington D,C. with Mother Angelica to a packed house. He spoke and everyone heard him in English. His spiritual director was the Holy Cardinal Vidal. Stanley is deceased now, but the miracles that followed him were incredible and he was a true man of God. He stayed with us and he spoke in my town. My family was blessed by his testimony and his prayers.

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/the-gift-of-tongues/

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/more-on-the-gift-of-tongues/

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-gift-of-tongues-is-not-inarticulate.html

 

You have put up links , Marti which do not leave much to be said. I am on my way out to work so cannot write muc now but in celbration of the Feast of Pentecost I must write alittle more later on.

My won first steps in prayer were through the rosary. I said more and more of them everyday untill at least I was pretty well saying them non stop.

(be patient I will wind my way round to the Gift of Tongues sooner or later...probably much , much later....all this has a bearing, trust me)

Later on I read the Book , 'The Way of the Pilgrim' which taught the unceasing prayer of St Paul, in the form of the Jesus Prayer'. I eneded up praying constantly as St PAul asks,
unceasing prayer which continues on now and into Eternity.

View attachment 4948

 

My sermon on Sunday was against Pentecostalism.
A lot of St John of the Cross. If it was recorded I will link it.

 

We are a Church of the miraculous and of miracles. Many have forgotten that. That is why our Lady has come in such a powerful way. To show us that all is possible!!

Its fine all day to say that we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism but lo and behold, if one says they have the gift,,,,its like you have become a leper! I know that all in the proper time /place of course, but seriously. It is a problem and I don't even have the gift of tongues...

Personally, I appreciate Fr. Larry Richards take on receiving the gift of tongues. If you haven't heard it, I hope you can. If someone can find the link and put it on here, its funny, and edifying!

Our Lady is ALWAYS PRESENT where the Holy Spirit is present and vice versa.

I've yet to hear of a perfect saint. They were not perfect in their prophesy, their gifts etc. Only that they bore their crosses and had great fortitude. Many were down right grumpy!!

 

LOVE THAT BOOK PADRAIG!! One of my top 5 books!

 

I wish I still had the materials I put together about sixteen years ago that provided compelling evidence against a major portion of the Charismatic Movement, complete with its speaking in tongues and other visible "signs". I don't have them, as they got lost in my many moves between computers.

I only take up this space to summarize the bottom line I had found.

First, I never got "the gift of tongues", either. Before becoming Catholic twenty years ago I had been involved in various non-denominational churches, and many of which I gravitated towards were Charismatic, the Pentecostal Assemblies of God denomination, included. Many folks would tell me I didn't have the Holy Spirit unless I spoke in tongues, so for a while I took that on and felt bad about it, and after many "tries" (with coaching), I eventually understood they had to be off-base.

Getting into computer searches, I eventually did a study on the roots and proliferation of the "speaking in tongues" movement, particularly jumping off on the "Toronto Blessing", as that movement spread down to Pensacola, Florida, and networked around to the growing mega-church thing. The "blessing", in general, was made famous by the likes of various Pentecostals and non-denominational Protestants, and it literally spread everywhere, like wind blowing feathers.

As I studied the roots of that movement, I became surprised and alarmed by what I found: the initial roots of that particular movement were bizarre, and absolutely not from a Christian source. It came from a decidedly unchristian source -- I mean anti-christian -- one that should not have been touched with a ten-foot pole.

And from that source which should not have been touched, the resulting"charisms" were passed along to thousands, and eventually millions, by the laying on of hands.

Laying on of hands is serious business, and it isn't just used by the holy.

I knew the names of the preachers who passed this on throughout the world and across North America -- it was prevalent -- and many of them showed up on television. One was Benny Hinn, I can't remember the other names, but research Toronto and Pensacola and you'll find many popular preacher names that caught and passed on the "charisms" to people you may personally know.

It concerned me when, after joining the Catholic Church, I ran into some Catholic priests and lay people who had gotten their "Charismatic gift" having had hands layed upon them by people who came out of that exact same Protestant-based movement. Really. And they continue, to this day, to put a lot of stock into these anti-catholic preachers, and even take a fair chunk of their theological coloring from these characters who should not be influencing them. "Gifts", theology, and all.

But people do put stock in them, because they believe that if it's supernatural, and it uses familiar buzzwords, it must be from God.

Much is not. New Agers can speak in tongues; the devils speak in tongues. And then you receive their "gift, instead, which can result in an infestation of ungodly varmints.

I have no doubt whatsoever that speaking in tongues can certainly come from God and know of many good people who seem to have the real thing. If it wasn't real, the devils would not bother imitating it. I particularly respect the charism from those to whom it came naturally, just praying by themselves, without having been coached.

I've gotten into debates over this on both sides, that ended up destroying relationships (not my choice). People in my experience have seemed to want to either embrace tongues without discrimination, or trash it out of hand, when the truth is in the reasonable middle.

Letting others lay hands upon you for the reception of the gift, should be approached with a lot of caution. You do not know from where they received their "gift" -- or where their source received their gift, right on back to the roots.

You all know that already. I'd just recommend passing on the word to anyone who doesn't understand.

 

I wonder from what source St. JPII got his gift of tongues?

In my own experience one can tell when another is speaking with a counterfeit tongue ie blaspheming God instead of praising Him.

 

Towards the end of this you can hear them singing softly in tongues.
This man was a priest for over 70 years. He founded the Servite Branch in Tyrone N Ireland together with his International Compassion and healing ministry.He was still answering the phone in Chicago in his 90s for prayer requests. Like Padre Pio the Church restricted access to his gifts for some time. This was his greatest cross but he obeyed.

 

Border Collie wrote:

Mark Mallett blog excerpt:

I think we can count on that spontaneously received gift.

I only brought up what I did, because the thread was to discuss the controversies of the topic of tongues. I found some valid controversy when I investigated certain root sources.

Fr. Rookey:

I'm happy that I got to attend two of Fr. Rookey's healing Masses. I wasn't healed, and I didn't fall down like many around me did, but I did definitely receive the mystery gift of the scent of roses.

It was in an August, and both of the churches where I attended were stifling hot: rather poor churches with no air circulation, no air conditioning, not even windows, just jam-packed crowds in miserable heat.

But when we prayed the Servite Rosary and would get to the Our Fathers, a gracious cool breeze would waft across my face, accompanied by the very nicest rose scent. I'd look around and see no artificial air anywhere, no earthly reason for it.

I gather that happened a lot.

 

Mac,

I'm waiting!

Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

 

http://www.newdawn.org.uk/about.html
“I am convinced that in the near future we are going to see the Lord acting in a much more remarkable way – that something new is coming. I relate this to a word I received in 1973 soon after I first came into Charismatic Renewal. I was marvelling at what I saw God doing and I felt him say ‘You will see the day when I will bring people tumbling in to my Church’ I think we are going through a time of cleansing and purification at the moment, like Gideon’s army. But this is so we will be able to receive a much more mighty grace. I feel we must get new wineskins ready for this – get the right structures in place.”
This is a quote from Myles Dempsey who founded the New Dawn community. They have a conference every year at Walsingham. Once during a very dark depressing period in my life, while wandering through the streets of Soho in London, an area not renowned for much virtue, I wandered into St Patrick’s Church. Under the Church is an extensive system of catacombs and it was among the first the first Catholic churches allowed after the Reformation in 1792. It acted as the pro cathedral for some time. Above the front door is the Exhortation “Be ye Christians as those of the Roman Church."
As you enter there is the small side chapel of St Rita of Cascia. She is the patron saint of absolutely hopeless cases. I was in the right place and I knelt to say a prayer. As I knelt I heard some beautiful singing from somewhere above me. I had never heard anything so beautiful in my life. I followed the sound to a staircase that led to an upper room that was filled with people praising God in what I later learned was tongues. I was overwhelmed and as I sat quietly enraptured with the heavenly sound the words of the psalm came to me “Your love oh Lord is eternal, discard not the work of your hands.” I was made to feel so welcome. But I did not return at that time. Years later when I was at seminary I heard of a remarkable healing that had happened at the hands of a man called Myles Dempsey who had started a Charismatic prayer group in East London. At this time I had also become acquainted with Fr Peter Mary Rookey and Monsignor Michael Buckley. These were men of vision and prayer all with great charisms of healing and deliverance. I would travel across London to their new home and attended their prayer groups and yearly conferences at Walsingham. There I heard and met Fr Bob Faricy SJ. I only remember one quote from him “God does not make junk, but he does collect it.” One year I made and sold many portable meditation stools to finance my attendance at such a conference.It turned our that Myles was the leader of the prayer group I had first encountered in Soho all those years ago: I had not been discarded. And now I have discovered people like Padraig Caughey, and Mark Mallet, and Charlie Johnson. God’s love is eternal and he provided many men and women of vision to help us at every step so the next step we take is the right one.
I don't think Myles ever tried to confer the gift of tongues but he did pray for people and people were healed and delivered through his touch. Nothing loud or flash and always focused on the power of prayer and not himself. Just so with Fr Rookey, he never claimed to heal anyone. His touch was just used by God. Myles also had the gift of interpretation that St Paul says is necessary. I have not been charismatic for a long time but I have never forgotten the graces of direction derived from my time there.

 

Fr Rookey prayed for my dad after I phoned him in Chicago when dad was diagnosed with cancer. Dad's tumour disappeared instantly. The surgeons accepted Fr Rookey's prayer as the only explanation. Mum thinks it was the prayers of the local Carmelite nuns that did it but I am convinced it was Fr Rookey's prayers because shortly after that my dad's secretary's daughter was healed of cancer and my sister in law's bride's maid was healed of a very aggressive cancer after Fr Rookey prayed for them. Also St Peregrine is the patron saints of cancer sufferers and that is the St Fr Rookey asks for help.

 

Hi Summerfileds,

Marti said she did not want to get sidelined here into a discussion on the Charismatic /Pentecostal Movement itself. So I wil lget right back to the Gift of Tongues. But I wonder if ,as a convert you knew the modern source of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church itself. I found this orign moving and convincing:

'In search of a Spiritual experience, professors from Duquesne University, a Catholic university in Pittsburgh, attended the Congress of the Cursillo movement in August 1966. While visiting, they were introduced to the book entitled The Cross and the Switchblade, which emphasized the Holy Spirit and the Spirit’s charisms. This book became the focus of their studies and further led them to pursue the Holy Spirit.

In January 1967, professors Ralph Keifer and Patrick Bourgeois attended a prayer meeting where they ultimately received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The following week, Keifer laid hands on other Duquesne professors, and they also had an experience with the Spirit. Then, in February, during a gathering at Duquesne University, more people asked Keifer to pray over them. This led to the event at the chapel where they too received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, as well as many other students who were present in the chapel.[5] Keifer sent the news of this event to the University of Notre Dame, where a similar event later occurred, and the Renewal began to spread.[6]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#Origins_of_the_Renewal_Movement

 

I just checked Mario. They are a bit slack I am afraid. The latest sermon is a couple of months old
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Anyway Marti was on about the Gift of Tongues itself. I am wandering myself and must go out to work shortly so I had better get back on course real quick.

My own Catholic prayer life is very traditional . I always eneded up reading the oldest books on mystical Theolgy and the lives of the saints because the libraries I had access too mostly only had very old books. So I would say my own spirituality is like a time machine. I am probably still living in the 19th centruy somewhere or beyond. I mean I would not be amenable to things like the Gift of Tongues in the ordinary course of events.

But when iw as just 19 my Spiritual Director introduced me to the Charismatic Movement.This was surprising since he was a very,very Conservative Catholic priest himslef and I would have thought he would have been hostile to it. But not at all, he adored it and took to it like a duck to water.

For myself I enjoyed it but never realy got into it. I love praying on my own and to be honest things that they took to naturally , like the laying on of hands and Baptism of the Spirit only gave me a very red face. Even in Church I seek out the quietest place and I hate talking in Church. Being alone in front of the Blessed Sacrament I just adore.

So the Chairsmatic Movement itslef did not suit me. But still I did breifly experience some Gifts like the Gft of TOngues and perhaps more importantly the GIft of Interpeting TOngues (which I think is more relevant0 and this caused me to do some thinking about the nature and intent of this Gift.

Well I have a theory that the Gift of Tongues...like other Charismatic Gifts..is kinetic. By Knetic I eman it is a taster. It throws us forward to what will be a later stage in our spiritual life (if we are faithful) to encourage us to move forward in our rpayer life.

This Gift of Tongues I think is a taster of Contemplative prayer. What is Contemplative Prayer.? It is, I think best described here:

Romans 8:15

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

So contemplative prayer , like the Gift of TOngues is the Holy Spirit taking over the reins and praying within us. The Gift of Tongues is its precusor.

Anyway that is more own pet theory. The reason I metnioned my own spiritual life in this regard is to place my opinion in context . I am kind of outside the Charismatic Movement so I hope my opinion may be taken as unbiased.

 

Padraig says, "Well I have a theory that the Gift of Tongues...like other Charismatic Gifts..is kinetic. By Kinetic I mean it is a taster. It throws us forward to what will be a later stage in our spiritual life (if we are faithful) to encourage us to move forward in our prayer life." For what it is worth that is also my experience. I moved on to contemplation but sad to say I did not keep it up. The rosary is my prayer now.

 

Same here.
The Rosary has always been the prayer of all prayers [beside, of course the Mass]. I believe the Lord allows us to taste many sweet nourishments on our journey home to Him. He is just so Good and Loving.

You know one of my absolute favorite prayers is 'Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament':

At Benediction I'm in heaven!


Sorry MS7, as I seem to be digressing. I believe the Holy Spirit leads all of us in our prayer life and as Padraig says He allows some to pass through the the gift of tongues, on their journey to different types and forms of prayer and others don't travel that same path.
Our Lord has His reasons, and those reasons are probably as diverse as the souls He created!

 

Question : if the gift of tongues as the charismatic renewal defines it is valid. ...why doesn’t the Eastern Byzantine Rite experience that same gift of the Holy Spirit the same way? When we speak of the unity of the Holy Spirit, the gift of the Holy Spirit in the eastern rite and Orthodox is present through the gift of oil-and anointing. I've never seen someone in the Eastern rite speak in tongues. ..
Maybe Peter B. might have an answer for us???

 

I became involved in Charismatic Renewal in the mid 1980s. At that time we were living in Maryland, USA. I was part of a wonderful prayer group that was fully Catholic and loyal to the Church. Even then it was clear that some people have a more 'pentecostal' spirituality than others. The wife of our PG leader was more contemplative, as am I. However the gifts of the Spirit were still practised, including tongues.

Back in the UK, I don't attend a charismatic prayer group at the moment, although I have been to various events. the Cor et Lumen Christi conferences are wonderful and I am now sorry I can't attend as we moved house a couple of years ago and Chertsey is a bit far now.

For what it's worth, the Renewal is a gift for the Church, not individuals, and will be most fruitful when in this context. Many great initiatives have begun from people who had been involved with the Renewal - EWTN, for instance - many of the presenters are or were involved with Charismatic renewal. Yes there are people who go off on a tangent, but this is true with other movements in the Church. The gift of tongues is not a requirement of course, but if you want to receive this, then ask the Lord. The gift of healing is surprisingly common as well. I think for some the Renewal is a springboard taking people deeper into their prayer life and not everyone stays with the Charismatics, it's often just a beginning.

I don't understand why Fr Blake is so against it. Perhaps he's been put off by the Toronto Blessing which doesn't look to me very much like what I experienced. The devil always tries to get a slice of the action. People rolling on the floor and barking like dogs aren't manifesting the Holy Spirit.

 

Our local "non-denominational" Pentecostal mega-church began as a charismatic Catholic prayer group. Today it's about 60% divorced and remarried former Catholics. (I know many of them, who brag about it, and I've been to Haiti with them on a medical mission trip with my residency director who also was a divorced and remarried former Catholic.)

Not all the fruits of the charismatic movement are good, and I say this as someone who has been involved with the movement.