The Warning, Or Illumination Of Conscience

So what have you say about Evaristo ?

 

Classic case of he said she said. What was Evaristo's response to Father Pacheco?

And by your own conspiratorial logic, why should a letter by Father Pacheco published the in the conspiratorial The Fatima Crusader carry any more weight than Evaristo's account?

Also, since Cardinal Vidal and Cardinal Antony Padiyara were both mentioned in the article I cited above, what was their responses to Father Pacheco's letter? Have they corroborated Father Pacheco's account?

Also, what is Father Pacheco's opinion on the 1984 Fatima Consecration?

 

While I am persuaded that the 1984 Consecration has been accepted by heaven I am unconvinced by your contention that Sr Lucia said it had been done in the way that Our Lady requested. Despite the verbage you have given no confirmation of that and no evidence to substantiate your claim or contention. Furthermore Our Lady did specify Russia several times. How on earth could someone persuade us that the original witness of Sr Lucia was false? Are you saying that Sr Lucia got her first story wrong, Our Lady asked for Russia to be consecrated, perhaps not exclusively Russia but yes specifically Russia. Sr Lucia may have said she knew nothing of Russia. I bet not many people know they have a Sphincter of Oddi but if a surgeon specified that it needed urgent attention it would be done. Otherwise the patient could die. Our Lady used the word Russia. The fact that Sr Lucia knew nothing of Russia is neither here nor there but actually makes her even more believable just as St Bernadette understood and knew nothing about The Immaculate Conception. Truth is lacking with regard what we have been told. I await the reply from forum member, Fatima , and can only hope it is more convincing than Richards. I end by reaffiming my belief that the 1984 Consecration was accepted but not that the Consecration was done in the way requested. It may have been the consecration in intention but not in deed. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and Our Lady of Akita warned us of the road that leads to hell. Those 70,000 witnesses to the miracle of the sun in Fatima would have understood clearly the words of the request of the Immaculata. They knew what Russia was. The main error of Communism is the belief that we can live without God, that God is a figment of the imagination and that religion poisons the mind. It thus denies that Jesus Christ is God. Even some so called Christian denominations hold this denial. This error is everywhere on earth. The Pope has said we are in piecemeal world war but not a world war as is understood by WWI and WWII. Our Lady of Garabandal repeatedly assured us there will be no WWIII like thise but that we can expect armed conflict within and between various countries and states. And don't waste your time saying Garabandal is not approved Richard. I know that but I find the witness of Garabandal far more credible than the replies you have given here. Just my opinion. As ever I may be wrong...but I don't feel wrong. The final statement from Sr Lucia sounds coerced to say the least. You start by saying that for the Church Fatima is closed matter. But Benedict Emeritus has said Fatima is not finished. Is he wrong too? He prayed in 2010 that the prophesies would be fulfilled by 2017. So 1984 was accomplished and accepted but was not the one requested...just a poor imitation that gained some graces but did not merit the full benefit by a long way.

 

Is Father Fox lying? Is Cardinal Bertone lying? Was Cardinal Ratzinger lying? Is EWTN in on the big lie as well?

 

I believe that Pope St. John Paul would not have tried to deceive Our Blessed Lady by doing some kind of fake consecration. Lucy wasn't an idiot. If the consecration was unsatisfactory, she could have found a way to get a message to Pope John Paul and Our Lady would have helped her, just as she got the message out that the first consecration was inadequate.

I also believe that if Pope Benedict thought that the consecration was inadequate, he would have re-consecrated Russia. When he said that the message of Fatima goes on, he was talking about our need to mend our ways and to pray especially for wayward souls, for the Pope and for all mankind. That was the essential message of Fatima and it is as relevant today as it was in 1917. Any chastisement will be down to our tardiness rather than the words used by Pope John Paul in the consecration. There was no suggestion that the First Saturday devotion should finish when Russia was consecrated. Rather than squabbling over the words of the consecration, we should be concentrating on our role which is to pray the Rosary and keep doing the First Saturday devotion.

I'm far more concerned about some unapproved apparitions and locutions. There are times I wonder whether Tolstoy is posing as a messenger from Heaven with messages so long they could give War & Peace a run for its money. Also, unless I misread or misunderstood, one had Heaven praising America or its Constitution (can't remember the exact phrase). Does anyone here really believe that Heaven would praise anything that had been tainted by Freemasonry? French Revolution and Statue of Liberty spring to mind. Maybe we all need to get a grip.

 

Try reading carefully Dolours then you may have some chance as you say to "get a grip." Pope Benedict specifically referred to the prophesies in his comment on Fatima. No one is squabbling. No one said that Benedict said the consecration was inadequate. No one is being accused of lying. I said truth was lacking not absent. There is no question of a fake consecration only a substitute. No one said the pope did not make a consecration. I have my opinion. Richard has his. He says it's all done and dusted. No one else has said this. Not even Sr Lucia. She only referred to the Consecration done by the pope as accomplished and accepted. Not to the consecration specified by the Virgin. The content of the question not the answer has been used to justify the claim of validation. In taking patient case histories the content and manner of questioning is important. You failed, Richard, to address any of my salient points, eg the original message and its specific mention of Russia. Was this true? Were we told originally that Our Lady specified Russia. You say that intention was enough and use the Intention of a priest to Consecrate as enough for validation. But that is not correct and Sr Lucia would have known that. For the bread to be consecrated it has to be done in the way and context specified by the church. Intention alone is not sufficient. Answers are given according to the context in which they are asked and do not necessarily reflect the whole truth. In the old days a witness had to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The witness can only give their best shot at this. I have had my say on this now. No more from me. What about you Fatima? Of course it was done according to Her intention - in fact, as Sr Lucia says it was done by intention - but not by instruction. Is intention alone sufficient? No it is not. I rest my case until Fatima (forum member) replies.

 

Twice Conchita was blessed after an interview with Pope Paul VI in these words "Conchita I bless you and WITH ME THE WHOLE CHURCH BLESSES YOU.." Now there's intention.

 

No, Joe, vertigo makes me very wary of claiming any kind of high ground. The more I look up, the more precarious it appears and the more I'm terrified I might fall or slip all the way back down.

Maybe I'm a bit dense, but to me a statement concealing the truth is an attempt at deception or a lie. I'm not accusing you of squabbling, but there is plenty of squabbling about this, and some of it goes far beyond the issue you raise. Your issue with Richard's comment about the matter being closed is not my concern. I'm only concerned that Sr. Lucy said the consecration was accepted by Heaven, and if Heaven is satisfied, who am I to be dissatisfied? Also, it makes no sense to me that Heaven will inflict a punishment on mankind because the Pope used the wrong words, despite the words used having been deemed satisfactory.

The "get a grip" comment was in respect to the endless unapproved apparitions and messages.

 

Vatican Chief Exorcist Says
Consecration of Russia Still Not Done
by Father Gabriele Amorth

"Therefore, that of 1984 was not a proper Consecration of Russia. I was there, kneeling just a couple of meters ahead of the Holy Father..."
So after several attempts to change his advisors’ minds, the Pope finally went along with them. He did not name Russia during the Consecration. But he did do Our Lady of Fatima this service – he made it known very plainly and quite publicly that he was not performing that day the consecration requested by Our Lady of Fatima. And the Pope drew particular attention to this fact by alluding to it twice that day – first in the morning, during the prayer of consecration itself, and then again three hours later.
Read his whole testimony http://www.fatima.org/pdf/losservatore/article_3.pdf

 

Bottom line Mac, No pope has claimed as much. The only thing we have is an alleged letter from Sister Lucia, which EWTN and Father Fox bought into. Yet it is completely ignored what Father Amorth, who was there that day and heard repeatedly from Pope JPII that he was not intending to perform the consecration of Russia as requested by Our Lady of Fatima.

What seems to be completely ignored by those who believe the consecration of Russia was done, is the result of the consecration according to our Blessed Mother would be an error of peace. Does anyone think we have had that era of peace in the past 32 years since 1984?

 

Ah the internet gremlins are at work again. I edited my comment but it remained online as was. For the last time, yes heaven did accept and was satisfied with the consecration that was made but it was not the one requested therefore it could not attract the full promise of the original. The church has not lied to us but it has never come clean as to why it did not comply either in terms or within the stipulated time frame with Mary's request as originally made. Also it has not said that full compliance will not be forth coming even if Sr Lucia said it is not necessary. It may not be necessary for now simply because now is the wrong time. The church has lost its chance for now. It will be made late. I agree with you. There has been no peace since 1984. The type of warring that existed in the world from WWII up to 1984 has not only continued but got worse and more widespread. This has not been an era of peace. The only reason for an unfullfilled promise from Mary is that the conditions for that promise were not met.

 

The punishment will not come because the pope used the wrong words. It will come because the church, having approved the vision, did not comply in time or terms. It did not obey a command it had already approved and confirmed as true. It did not lie but it did not tell the the truth. Rather than deception I would use the word concealment. Undoubtedly there has been a period of military peace between European states and other warring factions of WWII thanks to the grace of God obtained through Mary. But the major atheistic error of communism has spread across the world. God has been sidelined and evicted. Look at the wars that followed WWII in Korea and Vietnam. Look at the Rwanda genocide of 1994. 1,000,000 massacred. Look at the middle east. Tell them this was/is peace. Sin has to run its course but Our Lady can change or even end this course if we let her.

 

Many find it just too hard to believe that those in charge have been part of a deception.
That those in charge would try to deceive us.
Who do they think Pope Benedict was referring too?

Pope Benedict XVI said on May 13, 2010: "He deceives himself who thinks the prophetic mission of Fatima is concluded."

 

Despite all the claims to the contrary, Russia has not been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as requested at Fatima. Cardinal Ratzinger himself admitted this at the press conference in the year 2000 at the Vatican when the "Third Secret" was "revealed."

Here's the video in which Chris Ferrara reads Cardinal Ratzinger's own words regarding the consecration, from the transcript of that news conference, beginning at 48:50 but especially right at 50:00 minutes into the video:



Regarding a question about Fr. Gruner, Cardinal Ratzinger answers the reporter:

"I think that he should conform himself to the magisterium of the Church, recognizing that the Consecration of Russia is done according to the will of the Madonna, and that he should leave it to the Magisterium of the Church to find the right moment."

He was saying in the year 2000 that the Magisterium had not yet found the right moment, that the Consecration of Russia has not yet been done.

Cardinal Ratzinger goes on (in the transcript):

"He could make this proposal [i.e., the Consecration of Russia] but he should also be capable of being sufficiently generous to accept that the Magisterium has her reasons to not do it immediately, but to wait a little, and above all for the maturation of the process [of canonization] of the three shepherds."

 

Surely the peace that Our Lady of Fatima spoke of is not just the absence of war. I believe the peace that she is referring to is greater then anything we could imagine. What we know is, the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the era of peace will not come until the consecration of Russia (not the world) takes place. This is her words and Lucia's publically spoken words (not in an alleged letter). The Triumph of Mary is the crushing of the head of Satan. The effects of this is much greater then just the absence of war, it will be a peace that is deserving of her Triumph "she shall crush his head". A celebration of the Church triumphant in heaven, Church suffering in purgatory and Church militant her on earth.

 

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Amen. Not the chaos and collapse that surrounds us in the Church today. There's no way the last several decades represent the Triumph and Era of Peace. If so, what a weak god, what a devilish deception? This is the best we can do, the best we're going to get? "Where's the beef?!?"

 

Time limits are relevant to prophesy. Our Lady of Akita said "I alone can STILL save you from the calmities ahead." The use of the word 'still' implies a time limit. That was 1973. Those calamities are now almost upon us. Perhaps they could have been avoided if the consecration had been dome properly in the form requested. There is an old legal saying."Justice must not only be done but be seen to be done." Just so the consecration - it had to be seen to be done. It was neither seen not done according to the way requested. I suggest that because Fatima had already been approved subsequent non- compliance was not a good way to go. Maybe full compliance can still reduce the forthcoming suffering.

 

Where is the Beef indeed.
The deception becomes so twisted that we are supposed to swallow the consecration is done ,and we must pass through a storm where millions and millions must die.
Where millions and millions die is a consequence of it not being done.Our Lady told us this.

 

As for me and my family, after our daily rosary, we pray for the consecration of Russia and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary every night. God hears all prayer that is in his Divine Will.