Apostasy

I am not a theologian either, though I have studied the faith a great deal. There is something to be said for a good "Catholic sense" over convoluted theological concepts. It reminds me of one time decades ago when the U.S. congress was trying to define pornography and they couldn't come up with any clear distinguishing difference between some art and pornography. One politician stood up in congress and said “I may not be able to tell you the difference, but I'll know it when I see it”. I think that is true of many of these new modern “theological concepts”. I may not be able to refute them all with “ book learnin' ” but I know they are spiritual pornography.

 

I will go back and go through the thread again post by post.

 

THough its a pity I have to spend time checking like this.

 

My Heart was also broken especially for Joe, I am sorry but their dialogue is completely heretical, as Padraig said, this cannot be allowed in any Catholic Forum, both are friendly members but I can't believe myself what I read today in this thread and this really worries me, I just pick 2 example below :

Joe :

"Whatever the answer it is clear that in part scripture and catechism are human artefacts and therefore imperfect"

Heresy

Blue :

"The exegetes seemed to demonstrate that what was in the Catechism was not clearly found in or proven by Scripture"

Heresy

and there are many more, this could be dangerous for any soul reading their dialogue and in my opinion must be denounced at all costs, I am really sorry.

Aviso

 

I don't think Joe's statement is *necessarily* heretical. It is true that the Scripture and Catechism are partly human. No one can deny that. Now it depends what he means by "imperfect" - if he means that since they are written documents, they are open to misinterpretation, then I would agree with him. If he means that Scripture was not written to be an orderly exposition of the Faith, that much is true. Probably "imperfect" was the wrong choice of words, and he meant that Scripture (and the Catechism) are not "formally sufficient" as theologians would say.

 

I will take my time and go through the thread. But this takes so much time....oh well.

 

God is the author of the Sacred Scripture, Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline, this is our Catechism, saying that Scripture and the Cathechism are not "formally sufficient" is of course an Heresy and you will not find any Catholic Theologians confirming the contrary, if yes please provide your sources, thank you.

Aviso

 

Aviso, Catholic teaching is that Scripture (and the Catechism) are NOT formally sufficient. It is Protestants who hold that Scripture is formally sufficient. Formally sufficient means that
Scripture is held to be so clear that it does not need any outside information to interpret it (e.g. the church is not needed to interpret scripture.) Formal sufficiency of Scripture = Sola Scriptura.

 

Right, we Catholics reject the Protestant doctrine of "sola Scriptura", it is why we have the Cathechism which reference not only Scripture but also the Church Fathers as their ecuminical councils and therein lies the greatest difference between Catholicism and Protestantism but saying that Scripture and Catechism are not formally sufficient, I am sorry but I maintain, this is an heresy.

Aviso

 

"Formally sufficent" is a theological term meaning that this is all that is required to find the truth that Christ came to bring. As Catholics, we do not hold that Scripture, the Catechism, or even both together are "all that are required."

We also need the Magisterium (and Tradition)...

Whether that's what Aloysius was talking about when he said "imperfect", I have no idea.

 

Those in homosexual cohabitation, unless they are celibate, are committing an abomination. There is no getting away from that. One may have a disordered attraction, and this in itself is not a sin, but is it not sinful to wilfully indulge this attraction? As a heterosexual I consider that I must not overly-indulge any attraction (although considered ordered in this case) I might feel for any attractive woman I come across. We have this from Our Lord Himself. Would not the same be expected of a homosexual? And disordered actions can never be acceptable. This would be utter apostasy and heresy in my opinion (and not just mine).

I have come across several highly respectable opinions about Von Balthasar that he had a tendency to support the idea of universal salvation, something contradicted by Scripture and recent comments by Our Lady. There is also controversy about his views about Our Lord's descent into Hell. I am inclined to agree with those that assert that Garrigou-Lagrange is the most reliable theologian of recent times. We should be very wary of novelty. Revelation finished with the death of the last Apostle.

 

Yes, thank you Mary's child. That is exactly what I was saying. Apart from the dreadful teaching at seminary which was in iteslf questionable I was surrounded by perverts from the staff and student body. It was an awful experience. The academic and intellectual approach to my faith sickened me. As St Paul says, " We preach no clever philosophy but only Christ crucified". Every day in sem8nary was a hellish battle against these forces. I had no idea I was saying anything controversial in my conversation with BH. I was just trying to engage with BH and understand what he was getting at and where he was going. I never meant that scripture or the cathechism were imperfect in themselves but that the people who first recorded were human like us and so were subject to imperfection. For instance there are small inconsistencies between the gospels. This does not make them untrue. In the old testament there are many examples of the imperfect thinking and actions of men. These imperfections are perfectly presented but show human beings to be highly deficient. They demonstrate just how much we need to trust in the ways of God and not the ways of Man. As far as east is from west and so unimaginably high above us ate these ways. I realise I am not an academic like BH and I have no wish to be. I was just trying to understand him. Perhaps I should have kept the exchange off the public forum in the light of your tirade Padraig. The Catechism and Scripture present content yet to be complete and fulfilled at the end of time. This content is certain and true. "For now we know only imperfectly, and we prophesy imperfectly, but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with......now, I can know only imperfectly, but then I shall know just as fully as I am known". This is the imperfection to which I refer. You are very very very wrong in the way you have spoken, to me and about me Padraig and Aviso. But there again you, like me, are imperfect. I forgive your grave offenses. I am innocent of all your charges. The only muck here is the muck you have thrown at me. I have a sensitive conscience and it is clear. You should be questioning your own. I have been put a little off balance by LTTW and in this regard my discernment has been lacking. I feel rather foolish for letting this affect me as it has and was worried my response to it may have compromised my ability to witness to truth. My comments to BH were also made when tired at the end of a long hard day. But I do not apologise for them. The only thing wrong was your interpretion, your insult and your abuse. Both you and Aviso have put words into my mouth that I have not spoken in the way you present them. I finished my discourse by asking BH if he still saw this gulf between scripture and catechism wondering if his mind had changed since his student days and like me had regained his faith. Shame on both of you for your slander and calumny. I hope you have the guts to publish this in full. I am truly sickened by Aviso in his persecution of me but better men than me have been betrayed by better men than Aviso. Most people here know he has his own agenda. As for you Padraig....I had hoped for better. If you had read my comments you would have seen my criticism of theoligians who endanger the faith by over intellectualising it. You would have seen my comments were mostly questions to BH. I was not providing a vehicle for heresy. I was trying to understand what he was saying. My own comment on the imperfections recorded in Scripture and Catechism were given the worst meaning possible by both of you. This was no defence of faith or freedom on your part but an unwarranted attack on a fellow Catholic. The kind of thing Saul used to do. At least he had the excuse of the imperfect interpretations of his teachers. You have no such excuse. I try to add to our faith on this site. Understanding is such an addition and I was trying to understand BH. I am not guilty of heresy but you have besmirched my good name and devalued my witness. SHAME ON YOU.

 

Messages Given To Pedro Regis, Brazil
The Division Of The Church – Schism
March 22, 2007. Message 2814Dear Sons and Daughters, The Church will be shaken and there will be a great division.

The Key
March 31, 2007. Message 2818
Dear Sons and Daughters, Men will try to break the key and there will be great confusion.

February 6, 2008. Message 2953 – from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera.
Dear Sons and Daughters, The adversary will find in the palace the key that will open the door to act in the world. With his cleverness, he will involve very astute men and women. His project will involve men and women of the scientific and religious world. Leaders of the whole world, both the famous and the simple, will be attracted to his poisonous project. The faithful will carry a heavy cross, but My Jesus will conquer, and mankind will encounter liberation….

March 15, 2008. Message 2971 – from Our Lady of Peace.
Dear Sons and Daughters, The key for the opponent to enter will be in the palace. His power will be like a great weapon of destruction. False ideologies will be embraced as true, and My poor children will experience the cross of slavery….

The Church Of My Jesus Will Suffer A Great Betrayal
February 2, 2008. Message 2951 – from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera.
Dear Sons and Daughters, A kingdom will split, and another kingdom will arise and cause great confusion. A king will be taken from His throne and the people of God will lose. I am your humanity. The church of My Jesus will suffer a great betrayal. Pay attention and don’t get away from prayer….

August 2, 2008. Message 3035 from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera, Bahia, Brazil.
Dear Sons and Daughters, … Be faithful to the church. The church will carry a heavy cross because of a great betrayal. The doors will be open for enemies and the pain will be great for the faithful. The throne of Peter will be shaken….

The Black Bird Will Land On The House Of God
September 18, 2006. Message 2735Dear Sons and Daughters, The black bird will land on the house of God. Its power will cause destruction and death. (Editor’s Note: Bird means Cardinal.)


When the King Is Dethroned A Great Battle Will Begin
September 20, 2007. Message 2893 – from Our Lady.
Dear Sons and Daughters, When the king is dethroned a great battle will begin. Humanity will live moments of great tribulations.

When the Throne Falls There Will Be A Great Contempt For Dogmas
January 8, 2008. Message 2940 – from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera.
Dear Sons and Daughters, When the throne falls and it is no longer possible for the king to remain, there will be a great contempt for dogmas, and few will remain firm in the faith.

An Order Will Come From Malta That Will Shake The Church
February 1, 2008. Message 2950 – from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera.
Dear Sons and Daughters, You live in the time of great spiritual tribulations. Bend your knees in prayer, for this is the only way that you will be able to bear the weight of difficulties. The Church will walk on difficult paths. It will confront much ingratitude from bad pastors and will drink the bitter cup of pain. An order will come from Malta that will shake the church and make the faithful suffer….

Many Faithful Men And Women Won’t Know What Side To Be On
July 8, 2008. Message 3020 from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera, Bahia, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, … When the reign is divided, there will be great disorder among religious leaders. Many faithful men and women will wander aimlessly, full of doubts. They won´t know what side to be on. A wound will be opened in the heart of the Church….

The One Who Could Have Been Peter Will Become Judas
August 29, 2008. Message 3046 from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera, Bahia, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, bend your knees in prayer for the Church of My Jesus. The one who could have been Peter will become Judas. He will open the doors for the enemy and will make men and women of faith suffer….

September11, 2008. Message 3052 from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera, Bahia, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, bend your knees in prayer for the Church. A religious leader will arise against the authority of The Pope and will cause great division in the Church. The darkness of apostasy will fall upon the Church of My Jesus….

October 12, 2008. Message 3066 from Our Lady of Peace, in Boquim, Sergiipe, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, … A great crisis will strike the Church of My Jesus. A religious leader will slip and there will be great confusion….

December 19, 2009. Message 3255 from Our Lady of Peace, Anguera/ Bahia, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, A man who seems to be good and just will come, but he will be a traitor, and lead mankind to suffering.

Two Thrones, But Only On One Will Be The True Successor Of Peter
December 23, 2008. Message 3098 from Our Lady of Peace, given in Maceió, Brazil.Dear Sons and Daughters, … The Church of My Jesus will carry a heavy cross. The day will come when there will be two thrones, but only on one will be the true successor of Peter. It will be a time of great spiritual confusion for the Church. Stay with the truth. Listen to what I say and remain firm in the faith….

 

Your position BH contradicts the early Church Fathers on homosexual acts.

The Church Fathers taught that such sins lead to spiritual death unless there was repentance and penance.

I suggest that you take time to read and learn from the masters of the faith.

Tertullian (220)
"[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities" (Modesty 4 [A.D. 220]

St. John Chrysostom (347-407),
Doctor of the Church: "But if thou scoffest at hearing of hell and believest not that fire, remember Sodom. For we have seen...even in this present life, a semblance of hell...an unquenchable fire...[f]or such is the burning of Sodom...Consider how great is that sin, to have forced hell to appear even before its time!...For that rain was unwonted, for the intercourse was contrary to nature, and it deluged the land, since lust had done so with their souls."

Saint Jerome (340-420)
“And Sodom and Gomorrah might have appeased it [God’s wrath], had they been willing to repent, and through the aid of fasting gain for themselves tears of repentance"

Augustine (400)
"[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way" (Confessions 3:8:15 [A.D. 400]

Saint Gregory the Great (540-604)
"Sacred Scripture itself confirms that sulfur evokes the stench of the flesh, as it speaks of the rain of fire and sulfur poured upon Sodom by the Lord. He had decided to punish Sodom for the crimes of the flesh, and the very type of punishment he chose emphasized the shame of that crime. For sulfur stinks, and fire burns. So it was just that Sodomites, burning with perverse desires arising from the flesh like stench, should perish by fire and sulfur so that through this just punishment they would realize the evil they had committed, led by a perverse desire.

Saint Peter Damian (1007-1072)
"Truly, this vice is never to be compared with any other vice because it surpasses the enormity of all vices.… It defiles everything, stains everything, pollutes everything. And as for itself, it permits nothing pure, nothing clean, nothing other than filth.…

"The miserable flesh burns with the heat of lust; the cold mind trembles with the rancor of suspicion; and in the heart of the miserable man chaos boils like Tartarus [Hell]…. In fact, after this most poisonous serpent once sinks its fangs into the unhappy soul, sense is snatched away, memory is borne off, the sharpness of the mind is obscured. It becomes unmindful of God and even forgetful of itself. This plague undermines the foundation of faith, weakens the strength of hope, destroys the bond of charity; it takes away justice, subverts fortitude, banishes temperance, blunts the keenness of prudence.

"And what more should I say since it expels the whole host of the virtues from the chamber of the human heart and introduces every barbarous vice as if the bolts of the doors were pulled out.

Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
"Given the sin of impiety through which they [the Romans] sinned against the divine nature [by idolatry], the punishment that led them to sin against their own nature followed.... I say, therefore, that since they changed into lies [by idolatry] the truth about God, He brought them to ignominious passions, that is, to sins against nature; not that God led them to evil, but only that he abandoned them to evil....

"If all the sins of the flesh are worthy of condemnation because by them man allows himself to be dominated by that which he has of the animal nature, much more deserving of condemnation are the sins against nature by which man degrades his own animal nature....

"Man can sin against nature in two ways. First, when he sins against his specific rational nature, acting contrary to reason. In this sense, we can say that every sin is a sin against man’s nature, because it is against man’s right reason....

"Secondly, man sins against nature when he goes against his generic nature, that is to say, his animal nature. Now, it is evident that, in accord with natural order, the union of the sexes among animals is ordered towards conception. From this it follows that every sexual intercourse that cannot lead to conception is opposed to man’s animal nature."

Saint Catherine of Siena (1347-1380)
"But they act in a contrary way, for they come full of impurity to this mystery, and not only of that impurity to which, through the fragility of your weak nature, you are all naturally inclined (although reason, when free will permits, can quiet the rebellion of nature), but these wretches not only do not bridle this fragility, but do worse, committing that accursed sin against nature, and as blind and fools, with the light of their intellect darkened, they do not know the stench and misery in which they are. It is not only that this sin stinks before me, who am the Supreme and Eternal Truth, it does indeed displease me so much and I hold it in such abomination that for it alone I buried five cities by a divine judgment, my divine justice being no longer able to endure it. This sin not only displeases me as I have said, but also the devils whom these wretches have made their masters. Not that the evil displeases them because they like anything good, but because their nature was originally angelic, and their angelic nature causes them to loathe the sight of the actual commission of this enormous sin.

Saint Bernardine of Siena (1380-1444)
"No sin in the world grips the soul as the accursed sodomy; this sin has always been detested by all those who live according to God.… Deviant passion is close to madness; this vice disturbs the intellect, destroys elevation and generosity of soul, brings the mind down from great thoughts to the lowliest, makes the person slothful, irascible, obstinate and obdurate, servile and soft and incapable of anything; furthermore, agitated by an insatiable craving for pleasure, the person follows not reason but frenzy.… They become blind and, when their thoughts should soar to high and great things, they are broken down and reduced to vile and useless and putrid things, which could never make them happy.... Just as people participate in the glory of God in different degrees, so also in hell some suffer more than others. He who lived with this vice of sodomy suffers more than another, for this is the greatest sin.

 

I would just like to say that I have found the recent posts of Aloysius and Blue Horizon to be of a very high standard and which have raised the level of debate on this forum considerably. As Aloysius points out, there is nothing he has said that is remotely heretical and that goes for BH as well. I might add, however, that many of the comments on Pope Francis that appear on the forum could certainly be construed as heretical, but I would not be calling for their authors to be disciplined!

 

I dunno. BH may not have said anything obviously heretical (I am always very reluctant to take someone's written words and label them a heretic - and this mistake was made, IMO, with Aloysius based on a single word of commentary) but I have to say that BH at least appears to skirt right along the edge of the cliff of heresy with almost every post.

 

Thanks for that David. By the way Padraig, after work last night I paid a visit to our Church and prayed the Seven Sorrows for your friend Henry on front of Our Lady of Akita. It is already Saturday here so he should be in heaven now. Our Lady stands in a corner of the foyer next to an internal window that looks on to the huge cricifix over our altar and tabernacle. Next to her is a large photo of Pope Francis. Opposite her is a long engraved window depicting the story of St Joseph Her spouse. From the clear upper part of this window one can look up to the skies and last night was a starry starry night. The Southern Cross, the emblem of our nation, The sign of Christ, was clear and present and in a direct hirizontal line across the sky was a crescent moon the sign of Mary. Between then in waiting was the soul of your friend Henry. Our Lady of Akita shed many tears and I asked her to visit your friend and let her tears fall on him to give him cool refreshment and respite. St Faustina says Our Lady visits Holy Souls and gives them such care. She says that during these visits the Holy Souls call her The Star of the Sea. My anger at you Padraig is being replaced by pain at your betrayal.

 

I did suggest that BH, like Jacob is wrestling with God and like Jacob has been subject to dislocation. Read the comment Padraig!

 

Universal Salvation = Heresy

Brother al

 

Of course we also need the Magisterium which is de facto included in the Catholic Catechism, The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested and illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium, in clear there is not any third voice, the rest cannot be from God, anything affirming the contrary is an heresy, I am sorry but this our faith as the faith of our Fathers.

Aviso